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	<title>Comments on: the linux desktop&#8217;s change problem</title>
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	<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/</link>
	<description>Ramblings on software, law, and the spaces in between.</description>
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		<title>By: danw : No Innovation Here</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-29691</link>
		<dc:creator>danw : No Innovation Here</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 18:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-29691</guid>
		<description>[...] I was trying to innovate on the Linux Desktop today, while hacking on the workspace-switching code for GNOME Shell. I’d written some nice javascript code to make workspaces slide on and off the screen as you added/removed them: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I was trying to innovate on the Linux Desktop today, while hacking on the workspace-switching code for GNOME Shell. I’d written some nice javascript code to make workspaces slide on and off the screen as you added/removed them: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Keep an Open Eye Eye, Sir &#187; Linux Desktop Whimp II - Other Blog Views</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28930</link>
		<dc:creator>Keep an Open Eye Eye, Sir &#187; Linux Desktop Whimp II - Other Blog Views</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28930</guid>
		<description>[...] losing to Windows on Netbooks and discovers that Microsoft owns the PC desktop hardware suppliers. Luis Villa - looks at the problems of making changes in the Linux desktop design/look/processing among [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] losing to Windows on Netbooks and discovers that Microsoft owns the PC desktop hardware suppliers. Luis Villa &#8211; looks at the problems of making changes in the Linux desktop design/look/processing among [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hacker News</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28926</link>
		<dc:creator>Hacker News</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28926</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Pull your company&#039;s pants down (asack.typepad.com) 2 points by peter123 9 hours ago &#124; 1 comment82.The Linux desktop’s innovation problem (tieguy.org) 2 points by IsaacSchlueter 9 hours ago &#124; discuss83.The stupidest things I&#039;ve done in [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] Pull your company&#8217;s pants down (asack.typepad.com) 2 points by peter123 9 hours ago | 1 comment82.The Linux desktop’s innovation problem (tieguy.org) 2 points by IsaacSchlueter 9 hours ago | discuss83.The stupidest things I&#8217;ve done in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Hacker News &#124; the linux desktop’s innovation problem</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28925</link>
		<dc:creator>Hacker News &#124; the linux desktop’s innovation problem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28925</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] &#124; the linux desktop’s innovation problemHacker Newsnew &#124; comments &#124; leaders &#124; jobs &#124; submitloginthe linux desktop’s innovation problem (tieguy.org) 1 point by IsaacSchlueter 4 minutes ago &#124; [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] | the linux desktop’s innovation problemHacker Newsnew | comments | leaders | jobs | submitloginthe linux desktop’s innovation problem (tieguy.org) 1 point by IsaacSchlueter 4 minutes ago | [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Luis Villa&#8217;s Blog / open(ish?) design</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28863</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis Villa&#8217;s Blog / open(ish?) design</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28863</guid>
		<description>[...] talked recently about the need for the development of sustainable design best practices that work in a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] talked recently about the need for the development of sustainable design best practices that work in a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: workflows</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28840</link>
		<dc:creator>workflows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28840</guid>
		<description>How about using workflow-oriented GUIs for desktop apps - &quot;wizards&quot; for common things - where everything is step-wise - so that even zombies cant get confused while doing daily work in process of switching to Linux, whether GNOME and KDE?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about using workflow-oriented GUIs for desktop apps &#8211; &#8220;wizards&#8221; for common things &#8211; where everything is step-wise &#8211; so that even zombies cant get confused while doing daily work in process of switching to Linux, whether GNOME and KDE?</p>
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		<title>By: rawdog</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28773</link>
		<dc:creator>rawdog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28773</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Villa has put up a thoughtful post on the difficulties of innovating on the Linux desktop. &quot;Discussion in this bug about the Sugar [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] Villa has put up a thoughtful post on the difficulties of innovating on the Linux desktop. &#8220;Discussion in this bug about the Sugar [...]</p>
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		<title>By: George</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28770</link>
		<dc:creator>George</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28770</guid>
		<description>I think the biggest mistake done by innovators is not being pragmatic.  If you change the way the desktop works you WILL bring inconsistency.  It is simply impossible for all applications to adapt to your new model, either because of lack of manpower or because of lack of liking of your new &quot;innovation.&quot;

The problem with any revolutionary change on the desktop is that it inevitably leads to totally inconsistent user experience and most likely many MANY new breakages.  I remember when we had discussion about application menu titles.  Now the &quot;File&quot; is a crapy name for a menu that includes &quot;Quit.&quot;  But if you change it to some other menu (I remember a &quot;foot&quot; menu was suggested) meant that you would close each app on the system differently.  There are many apps which say still use Motif even though Motif should have been dead 10 years ago.  There are many useful apps (xfig) that are heavily used that used xaw, even though xaw should have been dead before it was created.  Hence, your new model must integrate nicely with such apps.  Otherwise you&#039;re making the users life harder, not easier.

The argument that &quot;But in 10 years all apps will use this new model&quot; is bogus, because in 10 years, this model will be considered old and there will be a new innovation that breaks old habits.

I would disagree that linux desktop works at all satisfactorily.  There are millions of little issues that should be solved before we tackle big changes that will bring yet more breakage.  Now that I&#039;m mostly a user, rather than a developer on GNOME, I see a lot more breakage.  And I don&#039;t have time to describe and work on it and try to find how to fix/improve it.  That&#039;s because I need to use GNOME, not work on it.

So I would say incremental improvement is FAR superior.  I would be much happier if GNOME/Linux just worked, were consistent, even if they would look &quot;so 90&#039;s&quot; and would not look so flashy like vista or macos.  I tried using vista on my wife&#039;s new computer and it does the &quot;web desktop innovation&quot; by making sure that every window looks like a differently designed webpage.  It is no longer easy to see what you can click, and what does what.  Everything has different interface, except for old legacy apps which are the only consistent thing.

Another &quot;innovation&quot; I would disagree with is the desktop trying to be &quot;too smart.&quot;  Windows does this to the max.  They rename things with some supposedly easy to understand term, but never explain what is going on.  Hence, you mostly don&#039;t know what the system is doing because it thinks you are too stupid to tell it what to do.  Most users are not going to use the system in the way it was designed to be used.  If you design an interface with a certain workflow in mind, chances are, no a single user is actually following that workflow.

Anyway too much ranting ... gotta go write a final for my class ... (I&#039;m procrastinating now that no students are in my office hours) ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the biggest mistake done by innovators is not being pragmatic.  If you change the way the desktop works you WILL bring inconsistency.  It is simply impossible for all applications to adapt to your new model, either because of lack of manpower or because of lack of liking of your new &#8220;innovation.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem with any revolutionary change on the desktop is that it inevitably leads to totally inconsistent user experience and most likely many MANY new breakages.  I remember when we had discussion about application menu titles.  Now the &#8220;File&#8221; is a crapy name for a menu that includes &#8220;Quit.&#8221;  But if you change it to some other menu (I remember a &#8220;foot&#8221; menu was suggested) meant that you would close each app on the system differently.  There are many apps which say still use Motif even though Motif should have been dead 10 years ago.  There are many useful apps (xfig) that are heavily used that used xaw, even though xaw should have been dead before it was created.  Hence, your new model must integrate nicely with such apps.  Otherwise you&#8217;re making the users life harder, not easier.</p>
<p>The argument that &#8220;But in 10 years all apps will use this new model&#8221; is bogus, because in 10 years, this model will be considered old and there will be a new innovation that breaks old habits.</p>
<p>I would disagree that linux desktop works at all satisfactorily.  There are millions of little issues that should be solved before we tackle big changes that will bring yet more breakage.  Now that I&#8217;m mostly a user, rather than a developer on GNOME, I see a lot more breakage.  And I don&#8217;t have time to describe and work on it and try to find how to fix/improve it.  That&#8217;s because I need to use GNOME, not work on it.</p>
<p>So I would say incremental improvement is FAR superior.  I would be much happier if GNOME/Linux just worked, were consistent, even if they would look &#8220;so 90&#8242;s&#8221; and would not look so flashy like vista or macos.  I tried using vista on my wife&#8217;s new computer and it does the &#8220;web desktop innovation&#8221; by making sure that every window looks like a differently designed webpage.  It is no longer easy to see what you can click, and what does what.  Everything has different interface, except for old legacy apps which are the only consistent thing.</p>
<p>Another &#8220;innovation&#8221; I would disagree with is the desktop trying to be &#8220;too smart.&#8221;  Windows does this to the max.  They rename things with some supposedly easy to understand term, but never explain what is going on.  Hence, you mostly don&#8217;t know what the system is doing because it thinks you are too stupid to tell it what to do.  Most users are not going to use the system in the way it was designed to be used.  If you design an interface with a certain workflow in mind, chances are, no a single user is actually following that workflow.</p>
<p>Anyway too much ranting &#8230; gotta go write a final for my class &#8230; (I&#8217;m procrastinating now that no students are in my office hours) &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: app-admin/eselect needs YOUR help &#124; Gentoo &#124; Dev</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28767</link>
		<dc:creator>app-admin/eselect needs YOUR help &#124; Gentoo &#124; Dev</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28767</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Re: app-admin/eselect needs YOUR help [In reply to]       On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Ciaran McCreesh &lt;ciaran.&#109;&#099;&#099;&#114;&#101;&#101;&#115;&#104;[at]&#103;&#111;&#111;&#103;&#108;&#101;&#109;&#097;&#105;&#108;&#046;&#099;&#111;&#109;&gt; wrote: &gt; On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:37:42 -0800 &gt; Donnie Berkholz &lt;&#100;&#098;&#101;&#114;&#107;&#104;&#111;&#108;&#122;[at]&#103;&#101;&#110;&#116;&#111;&#111;&#046;&#111;&#114;&#103;&gt; wrote: &gt;&gt; Open and public debate about the right way to do things does take &gt;&gt; longer, and it&#039;s something you certainly participate in quite &gt;&gt; frequently so I&#039;m surprised to hear you badmouth it when it comes to &gt;&gt; your own ideas. &gt; &gt; Open and public debate requires two or more well informed parties who &gt; are seeking to reach the best solution regardless of who proposed it, &gt; and a deciding body who are prepared to go for the best solution even &gt; if it isn&#039;t universally popular. This sometimes happens with Gentoo, &gt; but unfortunately all too often it&#039;s one of these instead: &gt; &gt; * A good proposal gets a few incorrect objections from people who &gt; don&#039;t understand it and aren&#039;t prepared to put in the effort to &gt; become well informed. The Council then uses these objections as an &gt; excuse to sit on the proposal and do nothing for months, because &gt; making a decision is harder than maintaining the status quo. &gt; &gt; * A good proposal gets a whole load of silly, trivial and nonsensical &gt; objections from sockpuppeting trolls who don&#039;t like the people who &gt; came up with the proposal (or sometimes from sockpuppeting trolls who &gt; suspect that the person who came up with the proposal once spoke to &gt; the cousin of a cleaner who once worked for the nephew of someone who &gt; said that the proposal looked sensible...). The Council do not &gt; dismiss these objections because they don&#039;t want to risk upsetting &gt; anyone. &gt; &gt; * A good proposal comes along. Its proof of concept implementation is &gt; done using a project that is considered by some to risk upsetting the &gt; status quo. A bunch of people who are involved in the proposal get &gt; fired. &gt; &gt; * A proposal gets implemented without the debate. It&#039;s either a lousy &gt; proposal that we&#039;re then stuck with, or a decent proposal that has a &gt; few flaws that could have been addressed. &gt; &gt; This is the kind of &#039;open and public debate&#039; one would expect from a &gt; failing government trying to cling to power for a few more years or a &gt; middle-management-heavy corporation on its last legs. It&#039;s fine if you &gt; want to repaint the bikeshed a slightly nicer shade of magenta, but &gt; it&#039;s a real nuisance for anything serious. &gt; &gt; None of the people involved in the decision to fork eselect rather than &gt; work on it for Gentoo are anything except entirely in favour of open and &gt; public debate. It&#039;s just that they don&#039;t exactly have a positive &gt; experience of that happening within Gentoo... &gt; &gt; -- &gt; Ciaran McCreesh &gt;  Reminds me so much of http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/ [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] Re: app-admin/eselect needs YOUR help [In reply to]       On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:44 PM, Ciaran McCreesh &lt;ciaran.&#109;&#99;&#99;&#114;&#101;&#101;&#115;&#104;[at]&#103;&#111;&#111;&#103;&#108;&#101;&#109;&#97;&#105;&#108;&#46;&#99;&#111;&#109;&gt; wrote: &gt; On Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:37:42 -0800 &gt; Donnie Berkholz &lt;&#100;&#98;&#101;&#114;&#107;&#104;&#111;&#108;&#122;[at]&#103;&#101;&#110;&#116;&#111;&#111;&#46;&#111;&#114;&#103;&gt; wrote: &gt;&gt; Open and public debate about the right way to do things does take &gt;&gt; longer, and it&#8217;s something you certainly participate in quite &gt;&gt; frequently so I&#8217;m surprised to hear you badmouth it when it comes to &gt;&gt; your own ideas. &gt; &gt; Open and public debate requires two or more well informed parties who &gt; are seeking to reach the best solution regardless of who proposed it, &gt; and a deciding body who are prepared to go for the best solution even &gt; if it isn&#8217;t universally popular. This sometimes happens with Gentoo, &gt; but unfortunately all too often it&#8217;s one of these instead: &gt; &gt; * A good proposal gets a few incorrect objections from people who &gt; don&#8217;t understand it and aren&#8217;t prepared to put in the effort to &gt; become well informed. The Council then uses these objections as an &gt; excuse to sit on the proposal and do nothing for months, because &gt; making a decision is harder than maintaining the status quo. &gt; &gt; * A good proposal gets a whole load of silly, trivial and nonsensical &gt; objections from sockpuppeting trolls who don&#8217;t like the people who &gt; came up with the proposal (or sometimes from sockpuppeting trolls who &gt; suspect that the person who came up with the proposal once spoke to &gt; the cousin of a cleaner who once worked for the nephew of someone who &gt; said that the proposal looked sensible&#8230;). The Council do not &gt; dismiss these objections because they don&#8217;t want to risk upsetting &gt; anyone. &gt; &gt; * A good proposal comes along. Its proof of concept implementation is &gt; done using a project that is considered by some to risk upsetting the &gt; status quo. A bunch of people who are involved in the proposal get &gt; fired. &gt; &gt; * A proposal gets implemented without the debate. It&#8217;s either a lousy &gt; proposal that we&#8217;re then stuck with, or a decent proposal that has a &gt; few flaws that could have been addressed. &gt; &gt; This is the kind of &#8216;open and public debate&#8217; one would expect from a &gt; failing government trying to cling to power for a few more years or a &gt; middle-management-heavy corporation on its last legs. It&#8217;s fine if you &gt; want to repaint the bikeshed a slightly nicer shade of magenta, but &gt; it&#8217;s a real nuisance for anything serious. &gt; &gt; None of the people involved in the decision to fork eselect rather than &gt; work on it for Gentoo are anything except entirely in favour of open and &gt; public debate. It&#8217;s just that they don&#8217;t exactly have a positive &gt; experience of that happening within Gentoo&#8230; &gt; &gt; &#8212; &gt; Ciaran McCreesh &gt;  Reminds me so much of <a href="http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/" rel="nofollow">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tecosystems &#187; links for 2008-12-08</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/12/05/the-linux-desktops-change-problem/comment-page-1/#comment-28745</link>
		<dc:creator>tecosystems &#187; links for 2008-12-08</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 01:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1388#comment-28745</guid>
		<description>[...] Luis Villa’s Blog / the linux desktop’s change problem this focuses more on approach than specific recommendations in direction, but i&#039;m in agreement with nearly all of it. and as for the question of direction, everyone knows where i think GNOME should go: online, with all possible speed. (tags: gnome process linux innovation feedback energy design criticism change luisvilla) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Luis Villa’s Blog / the linux desktop’s change problem this focuses more on approach than specific recommendations in direction, but i&#39;m in agreement with nearly all of it. and as for the question of direction, everyone knows where i think GNOME should go: online, with all possible speed. (tags: gnome process linux innovation feedback energy design criticism change luisvilla) [...]</p>
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