<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:creativeCommons="http://backend.userland.com/creativeCommonsRssModule"	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: couple quick quotes</title>
	<atom:link href="http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/</link>
	<description>Ramblings on software, law, and the spaces in between.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:26:41 -0500</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Planet DHG</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-27157</link>
		<dc:creator>Planet DHG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 05:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-27157</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Luis Villa &#8212; couple quick quotes [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] Luis Villa &mdash; couple quick quotes [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: djm</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-27046</link>
		<dc:creator>djm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 06:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-27046</guid>
		<description>There is no freedom lost by using the BSD license, unless you define freedom as &quot;the freedom to help myself to other people&#039;s improvements to BSD licensed code&quot;. Antipathy towards the BSD license seems to be based mainly on fear of proprietary forks overtaking the original projects, which has turned out to be largely illusory. Even Apple (!) contributes back to BSD projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no freedom lost by using the BSD license, unless you define freedom as &#8220;the freedom to help myself to other people&#8217;s improvements to BSD licensed code&#8221;. Antipathy towards the BSD license seems to be based mainly on fear of proprietary forks overtaking the original projects, which has turned out to be largely illusory. Even Apple (!) contributes back to BSD projects.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: marc anton</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-27040</link>
		<dc:creator>marc anton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 11:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-27040</guid>
		<description>The GPL is talking about &#039;free as in freedom&#039;. So if you talk about freedom you should consider the true meaning not something that fits for software. Remember? *Freedom*. Anarchy is freedom with *rules*, rules based on reasoning! While ensuring freedom, you&#039;re restricting real freedom step by step instead of really supporting it. 

&gt;They are two different conceptions of freedom, 

There aren&#039;t different conceptions of freedom just many abuses of the term to fit some bewildering environments like software. This you will learn in the first year in philosophy. A dictionary or maybe the Wikipedia isn&#039;t a real help to understand it and this is the problem of Stallman too, he misuses the term because he doesn&#039;t understand it. A license without a copyleft has something to do with confidence. First the human being, then the rest. There is no software first or something similar if you&#039;re talking of freedom. Stop the mockery, please or use something different than freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The GPL is talking about &#8216;free as in freedom&#8217;. So if you talk about freedom you should consider the true meaning not something that fits for software. Remember? *Freedom*. Anarchy is freedom with *rules*, rules based on reasoning! While ensuring freedom, you&#8217;re restricting real freedom step by step instead of really supporting it. </p>
<p>&gt;They are two different conceptions of freedom, </p>
<p>There aren&#8217;t different conceptions of freedom just many abuses of the term to fit some bewildering environments like software. This you will learn in the first year in philosophy. A dictionary or maybe the Wikipedia isn&#8217;t a real help to understand it and this is the problem of Stallman too, he misuses the term because he doesn&#8217;t understand it. A license without a copyleft has something to do with confidence. First the human being, then the rest. There is no software first or something similar if you&#8217;re talking of freedom. Stop the mockery, please or use something different than freedom.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Corey</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-26896</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 20:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-26896</guid>
		<description>Stallman says it well in this quote regarding this issue:

&gt; RMS: It is absurd to speak of the 
&gt; &quot;freedom to take away others&#039; freedom&quot;. 
&gt; The absence of that absurdity is what they 
&gt; are complaining about.

http://www.ofb.biz/article.pl?sid=353</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stallman says it well in this quote regarding this issue:</p>
<p>&gt; RMS: It is absurd to speak of the<br />
&gt; &#8220;freedom to take away others&#8217; freedom&#8221;.<br />
&gt; The absence of that absurdity is what they<br />
&gt; are complaining about.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ofb.biz/article.pl?sid=353" rel="nofollow">http://www.ofb.biz/article.pl?sid=353</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Winship</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-26895</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Winship</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-26895</guid>
		<description>Joseph: In my experience it&#039;s not that the BSD-license-preferers are more concerned about their freedom than about end users&#039; freedom. It&#039;s that they reject the idea that proprietary software is bad, and that users are in all circumstances best served by having software that they can modify.

I&#039;d say the FSF/GPL view is &quot;BSD-licensed software is less good, because it can be incorporated into proprietary software, and then people might use that proprietary software, which would impinge on their freedom. The free software movement is important because it creates software that helps people while preserving their freedom.&quot;

Whereas the BSD view is &quot;GPL-licensed software is less good, because it can&#039;t be incorporated into as many different kinds of software, and so it is overall less likely that developers will be able to use it to help users solve their problems. The open source movement is important because it&#039;s a great way for lots of people to work together to create software that helps people solve their problems.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph: In my experience it&#8217;s not that the BSD-license-preferers are more concerned about their freedom than about end users&#8217; freedom. It&#8217;s that they reject the idea that proprietary software is bad, and that users are in all circumstances best served by having software that they can modify.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d say the FSF/GPL view is &#8220;BSD-licensed software is less good, because it can be incorporated into proprietary software, and then people might use that proprietary software, which would impinge on their freedom. The free software movement is important because it creates software that helps people while preserving their freedom.&#8221;</p>
<p>Whereas the BSD view is &#8220;GPL-licensed software is less good, because it can&#8217;t be incorporated into as many different kinds of software, and so it is overall less likely that developers will be able to use it to help users solve their problems. The open source movement is important because it&#8217;s a great way for lots of people to work together to create software that helps people solve their problems.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Thomas Thurman</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-26892</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Thurman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-26892</guid>
		<description>Yes, but what do we mean by &quot;anarchy&quot;? It&#039;s an interesting question, because Vasile seems to be using it to mean &quot;chaos&quot;, but I think his wider question has interesting intersections with the political concept of that name as well.

In the US I&#039;ve seen a number of people whose political leanings are somewhere around those of the Libertarian Party define themselves as &quot;anarchists&quot;, and these people have often decried anti-authoritarian, anti-capitalist communists and socialists who also call themselves &quot;anarchists&quot; on the grounds that a prohibition on capitalism is considered to a restriction on these people; the anarchists of the Left then counter that capital is merely an abstraction of power, power means among other things &quot;being able to tell people what to do&quot;, and ultimately it boils down to a question of the extent to which a &quot;free&quot; society means that its members have the &quot;freedom&quot; to restrict the &quot;freedoms&quot; of others.

So I&#039;ve often thought that those who tell the anarchosyndicalists and anarchocommunists that their freedom isn&#039;t really free (because it means they wouldn&#039;t be able to restrict the freedom of others by introducing wage-slavery), and those who tell users of the GPL that their freedom isn&#039;t really free (because it means they wouldn&#039;t be able to restrict the freedom of others by stopping them using copies of the code freely) are arguing along rather similar lines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but what do we mean by &#8220;anarchy&#8221;? It&#8217;s an interesting question, because Vasile seems to be using it to mean &#8220;chaos&#8221;, but I think his wider question has interesting intersections with the political concept of that name as well.</p>
<p>In the US I&#8217;ve seen a number of people whose political leanings are somewhere around those of the Libertarian Party define themselves as &#8220;anarchists&#8221;, and these people have often decried anti-authoritarian, anti-capitalist communists and socialists who also call themselves &#8220;anarchists&#8221; on the grounds that a prohibition on capitalism is considered to a restriction on these people; the anarchists of the Left then counter that capital is merely an abstraction of power, power means among other things &#8220;being able to tell people what to do&#8221;, and ultimately it boils down to a question of the extent to which a &#8220;free&#8221; society means that its members have the &#8220;freedom&#8221; to restrict the &#8220;freedoms&#8221; of others.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;ve often thought that those who tell the anarchosyndicalists and anarchocommunists that their freedom isn&#8217;t really free (because it means they wouldn&#8217;t be able to restrict the freedom of others by introducing wage-slavery), and those who tell users of the GPL that their freedom isn&#8217;t really free (because it means they wouldn&#8217;t be able to restrict the freedom of others by stopping them using copies of the code freely) are arguing along rather similar lines.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-26890</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:26:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-26890</guid>
		<description>jeff: this is true no matter what the license is.  You&#039;ll note that just about any non-OSI license will be *more* restrictive to secondary developers than the GPL!  Yet this somehow goes unmentioned in the discussions.

Yes, the impingement is voluntary to the extent the software itself is voluntary.  (see also people&#039;s objection to MS Windows licensing yet their continued use of it)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jeff: this is true no matter what the license is.  You&#8217;ll note that just about any non-OSI license will be *more* restrictive to secondary developers than the GPL!  Yet this somehow goes unmentioned in the discussions.</p>
<p>Yes, the impingement is voluntary to the extent the software itself is voluntary.  (see also people&#8217;s objection to MS Windows licensing yet their continued use of it)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-26889</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-26889</guid>
		<description>To add completeness, the BSD advocates I&#039;ve come across are generally those who are the primary or secondary developers.  They are quite rightly concerned about the GPL impinging on their rights.  However, they appear to not step back to see the global decrease in freedom inherent in the BSD license, as almost all software users are downstream, not secondary (let alone primary).  Rather sad IMHO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To add completeness, the BSD advocates I&#8217;ve come across are generally those who are the primary or secondary developers.  They are quite rightly concerned about the GPL impinging on their rights.  However, they appear to not step back to see the global decrease in freedom inherent in the BSD license, as almost all software users are downstream, not secondary (let alone primary).  Rather sad IMHO.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Waugh</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-26888</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Waugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:23:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-26888</guid>
		<description>@Joseph: The secondary developers rights are &lt;em&gt;completely voluntarily&lt;/em&gt; &quot;impinged upon&quot;. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Joseph: The secondary developers rights are <em>completely voluntarily</em> &#8220;impinged upon&#8221;. :-)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joseph</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/04/07/couple-quick-quotes/comment-page-1/#comment-26887</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1215#comment-26887</guid>
		<description>The statement that &quot;BSD is to GPL as anarchy is to freedom&quot; is rather a loaded way of saying things.  For instance, those who favor anarchy over a government (cathedral) style will of course object.  And those who favor proprietary software will immediately object to having their positive views of the BSD license compared to anarchy.

Rather, the central question is *whose* freedoms are being guaranteed. 

In the case of the BSD license, the secondary developers&#039; rights (i.e. those receiving the BSD-licensed code) are (mostly; there are still some restrictions regarding copyright notices) maintained at the expense of allowing the downstream users/developers rights to be impinged upon.  

In the case of the GPL, the secondary developers&#039; rights are impinged upon to maintain the downstream user/developers&#039; rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The statement that &#8220;BSD is to GPL as anarchy is to freedom&#8221; is rather a loaded way of saying things.  For instance, those who favor anarchy over a government (cathedral) style will of course object.  And those who favor proprietary software will immediately object to having their positive views of the BSD license compared to anarchy.</p>
<p>Rather, the central question is *whose* freedoms are being guaranteed. </p>
<p>In the case of the BSD license, the secondary developers&#8217; rights (i.e. those receiving the BSD-licensed code) are (mostly; there are still some restrictions regarding copyright notices) maintained at the expense of allowing the downstream users/developers rights to be impinged upon.  </p>
<p>In the case of the GPL, the secondary developers&#8217; rights are impinged upon to maintain the downstream user/developers&#8217; rights.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
