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	<title>Comments on: Microsoft Technology Summit- mts08</title>
	<atom:link href="http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/</link>
	<description>Ramblings on law school in New York, free software, and the spaces in between.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 05:35:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26834</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26834</guid>
		<description>Bill: I completely hear what you're getting at, and I really regret having come across that way- I was imprecise and it showed.

I should note here that part of the problem here may be that I'm not a web guy, so my views may be biased because I just don't think about the space much.

Asking me why I prefer Java over C# is like asking me why I prefer wine over beer: it's something I can articulate; I've thought about the issues, played with the code, etc.

Asking me why I prefer Apache is like asking me why I prefer air: there may be alternatives, but I've never given them even the slightest bit of thought, so I couldn't really articulate why air might be better. So saying Apache was 'best of breed' is probably not what I should have said- it's more like (at least in my mind) Apache is so entrenched that I couldn't even tell you anymore why it is entrenched- it Just Is.

(I should note that I think this is rare. I'd have tons of discussion fodder for Linux, or Wordpress, or GNOME, or languages, or editors... just about any other software I use. Apache is unusual, so maybe it is just me.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill: I completely hear what you&#8217;re getting at, and I really regret having come across that way- I was imprecise and it showed.</p>
<p>I should note here that part of the problem here may be that I&#8217;m not a web guy, so my views may be biased because I just don&#8217;t think about the space much.</p>
<p>Asking me why I prefer Java over C# is like asking me why I prefer wine over beer: it&#8217;s something I can articulate; I&#8217;ve thought about the issues, played with the code, etc.</p>
<p>Asking me why I prefer Apache is like asking me why I prefer air: there may be alternatives, but I&#8217;ve never given them even the slightest bit of thought, so I couldn&#8217;t really articulate why air might be better. So saying Apache was &#8216;best of breed&#8217; is probably not what I should have said- it&#8217;s more like (at least in my mind) Apache is so entrenched that I couldn&#8217;t even tell you anymore why it is entrenched- it Just Is.</p>
<p>(I should note that I think this is rare. I&#8217;d have tons of discussion fodder for Linux, or Wordpress, or GNOME, or languages, or editors&#8230; just about any other software I use. Apache is unusual, so maybe it is just me.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Staples</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26829</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Staples</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26829</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the reply Luis.  I do agree that comments about 'why isn't this an apache config tool' were not terribly useful. :)  I guess I'm still curious as to why you would originally say "were we really going to have much useful feedback for the IIS guy?" and yet then claim "I think IIS's problem is that it seems that it is wisely understood that Apache is pretty much best of breed.".  If Apache is so clearly ahead of IIS, it would seem there would be plenty of feedback to give the IIS team.  And you realize that by not engaging you only reinforce the negative feedback loop (if there is such a thing in the open source community) that IIS is clearly inferior.  

In any case, as a user of both Apache and IIS I've shared my thoughts about Apache vs. IIS7 which you may be interested in reading here:  http://blogs.iis.net/bills/archive/2007/05/07/iis-vs-apache.aspx</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the reply Luis.  I do agree that comments about &#8216;why isn&#8217;t this an apache config tool&#8217; were not terribly useful. :)  I guess I&#8217;m still curious as to why you would originally say &#8220;were we really going to have much useful feedback for the IIS guy?&#8221; and yet then claim &#8220;I think IIS&#8217;s problem is that it seems that it is wisely understood that Apache is pretty much best of breed.&#8221;.  If Apache is so clearly ahead of IIS, it would seem there would be plenty of feedback to give the IIS team.  And you realize that by not engaging you only reinforce the negative feedback loop (if there is such a thing in the open source community) that IIS is clearly inferior.  </p>
<p>In any case, as a user of both Apache and IIS I&#8217;ve shared my thoughts about Apache vs. IIS7 which you may be interested in reading here:  <a href="http://blogs.iis.net/bills/archive/2007/05/07/iis-vs-apache.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.iis.net/bills/archive/2007/05/07/iis-vs-apache.aspx</a></p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26828</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:27:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26828</guid>
		<description>Bill: it wasn't that we wouldn't share, it's that we would probably have very little to share- which I think was reflected in the vast number of questions that basically boiled down to 'why isn't this just an Apache config tool?' Perhaps you found that useful feedback, in which case I apologize :) But it seemed to me that it was probably useless to you and to me, and frankly much less useful (for all parties) than some of the other discussions we had.

Now, I admit I have a slightly harder time explaining why this might be the case- why I intuitively singled out IIS in the way I did. I think IIS's problem is that it seems that it is wisely understood that Apache is pretty much best of breed. I've never heard any Apache user say 'I wish I was using IIS.' This is fairly unique- even in open source, people say 'I wish I had LINQ to solve this problem' or 'the MS IDEs are really slick.' And even if the firefox people are disdainful of IE, they at least acknowledge that IE is important. So talking with the LINQ folks, or the IDE people, or the C# people, was interesting. Not to say that there wasn't a gap there, but the gap was radically smaller than it was for IIS, and hence there was radically more useful communication to be had.

But maybe that's just me- you should definitely talk to others who were there as well, and possibly you did find it interesting and useful- in which case, I'm glad to be wrong, and I hope you enjoyed it enough to do it again :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill: it wasn&#8217;t that we wouldn&#8217;t share, it&#8217;s that we would probably have very little to share- which I think was reflected in the vast number of questions that basically boiled down to &#8216;why isn&#8217;t this just an Apache config tool?&#8217; Perhaps you found that useful feedback, in which case I apologize :) But it seemed to me that it was probably useless to you and to me, and frankly much less useful (for all parties) than some of the other discussions we had.</p>
<p>Now, I admit I have a slightly harder time explaining why this might be the case- why I intuitively singled out IIS in the way I did. I think IIS&#8217;s problem is that it seems that it is wisely understood that Apache is pretty much best of breed. I&#8217;ve never heard any Apache user say &#8216;I wish I was using IIS.&#8217; This is fairly unique- even in open source, people say &#8216;I wish I had LINQ to solve this problem&#8217; or &#8216;the MS IDEs are really slick.&#8217; And even if the firefox people are disdainful of IE, they at least acknowledge that IE is important. So talking with the LINQ folks, or the IDE people, or the C# people, was interesting. Not to say that there wasn&#8217;t a gap there, but the gap was radically smaller than it was for IIS, and hence there was radically more useful communication to be had.</p>
<p>But maybe that&#8217;s just me- you should definitely talk to others who were there as well, and possibly you did find it interesting and useful- in which case, I&#8217;m glad to be wrong, and I hope you enjoyed it enough to do it again :)</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Staples</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26827</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Staples</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26827</guid>
		<description>I'm curious, why wouldn't you have feedback for the "IIS guy"?  (yep, that's me!) As a self-proclaimed open source advocate, I'd think you would want to emulate the same kind of transparency and inclusivity the community evangelizes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m curious, why wouldn&#8217;t you have feedback for the &#8220;IIS guy&#8221;?  (yep, that&#8217;s me!) As a self-proclaimed open source advocate, I&#8217;d think you would want to emulate the same kind of transparency and inclusivity the community evangelizes.</p>
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		<title>By: Example spanners for today</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26816</link>
		<dc:creator>Example spanners for today</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26816</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] keyboard and mouse die at exactly the same time. During the Microsoft Technology Summit last year, like Luis, I bought one of the only things worth buying at the Redmond campus employee shop: A Microsoft [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] keyboard and mouse die at exactly the same time. During the Microsoft Technology Summit last year, like Luis, I bought one of the only things worth buying at the Redmond campus employee shop: A Microsoft [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26815</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 14:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26815</guid>
		<description>Samir: yeah, I had expected better. At least there was no one openly antagonistic to free software, as you said you got last time. :) Oh, and it sounds like they might respond to the same criticisms this time by making it a bar camp next time. We'll see how that goes. :)

Peter: yes, definitely great to meet you. You're the second person to make the Presentation Zen comment, but it gives me only mixed comfort. In my world (bazaar-land) every developer - not just the evangelists - is expected to be able to communicate. This is certainly not true (the slides at the average free software conference are abysmal too) but it's at least something almost everyone aspires to. This not only helps outreach, but it helps the product too- if everyone at some point communicates to users directly, you end up with a much more realistic understanding of needs and use than if all communications are moderated through layers of sales guys, evangelists, and product managers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Samir: yeah, I had expected better. At least there was no one openly antagonistic to free software, as you said you got last time. :) Oh, and it sounds like they might respond to the same criticisms this time by making it a bar camp next time. We&#8217;ll see how that goes. :)</p>
<p>Peter: yes, definitely great to meet you. You&#8217;re the second person to make the Presentation Zen comment, but it gives me only mixed comfort. In my world (bazaar-land) every developer - not just the evangelists - is expected to be able to communicate. This is certainly not true (the slides at the average free software conference are abysmal too) but it&#8217;s at least something almost everyone aspires to. This not only helps outreach, but it helps the product too- if everyone at some point communicates to users directly, you end up with a much more realistic understanding of needs and use than if all communications are moderated through layers of sales guys, evangelists, and product managers.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Laudati</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26814</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Laudati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26814</guid>
		<description>Luis, it was great meeting you out there.  Would love to keep in touch here in NY.  FYI...  it might make you happy to know that everyone on the field evangelism team (the guys in the back of the room), just received a copy of the Presentation Zen book about a month ago. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luis, it was great meeting you out there.  Would love to keep in touch here in NY.  FYI&#8230;  it might make you happy to know that everyone on the field evangelism team (the guys in the back of the room), just received a copy of the Presentation Zen book about a month ago. :)</p>
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		<title>By: Samir Chopra</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26812</link>
		<dc:creator>Samir Chopra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26812</guid>
		<description>Nice wrap-up Luis. To be honest, I'm surprised that last year's feedback about more of a full-duplex conversation was not taken more seriously. Anyway, the best part is the conversations after the presentations so kudos to MS for getting all those folks together!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice wrap-up Luis. To be honest, I&#8217;m surprised that last year&#8217;s feedback about more of a full-duplex conversation was not taken more seriously. Anyway, the best part is the conversations after the presentations so kudos to MS for getting all those folks together!</p>
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		<title>By: tecosystems &#187; links for 2008-03-31</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26808</link>
		<dc:creator>tecosystems &#187; links for 2008-03-31</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 06:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26808</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Luis Villa’s Blog / Microsoft Technology Summit- mts08 excellent MTS wrapup from Senor Villa. not that i expected anything less. (tags: luisvilla microsoft microsofttechnologysummit mts) [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] Luis Villa’s Blog / Microsoft Technology Summit- mts08 excellent MTS wrapup from Senor Villa. not that i expected anything less. (tags: luisvilla microsoft microsofttechnologysummit mts) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Real Paul Jones</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/03/29/microsoft-technology-summit-mts08/#comment-26805</link>
		<dc:creator>The Real Paul Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/?p=1209#comment-26805</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...]  Luis Villa who is in Law School at Columbia having been at Gnome before that blogs (and tweets) as ... [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...]  Luis Villa who is in Law School at Columbia having been at Gnome before that blogs (and tweets) as &#8230; [...]</p>
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