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	<title>Comments on: shaver asks some interesting questions about Microsoft and legal liability</title>
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	<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/</link>
	<description>Ramblings on law school in New York, free software, and the spaces in between.</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Ben Hyde</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26716</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Hyde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:54:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26716</guid>
		<description>Very amusing negotating tactic.  Kind of "i'll have to ask my wife" on steroids.  I just love the idea that the entire industry's standards making efforts would have to conform to unknown commitments made by Microsoft sale people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very amusing negotating tactic.  Kind of &#8220;i&#8217;ll have to ask my wife&#8221; on steroids.  I just love the idea that the entire industry&#8217;s standards making efforts would have to conform to unknown commitments made by Microsoft sale people.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Gordon</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26516</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Gordon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 01:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26516</guid>
		<description>Luis:  The following is a comment I just posted on Shaver's site... I'm cross-posting here just to make it easy to read.


As others have said, if backwards compatibility was a claimable issue, Microsoft would be out of business by now.

The only way that Microsoft (or any other organization) would be liable for this would be if they contractually agreed to such a constraint.  And, having been working with Microsoft's agreements for over a decade, I can tell you without a doubt that they don't have this in their template (and that they don't come too far "off" their template, even for REALLY big deals).

The net-net on this is that unless there's a larger agreement in place (for example, if Microsoft has an agreement with the W3C to keep IE compliant with the standards), Microsoft has ZERO liability (of any sort).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luis:  The following is a comment I just posted on Shaver&#8217;s site&#8230; I&#8217;m cross-posting here just to make it easy to read.</p>
<p>As others have said, if backwards compatibility was a claimable issue, Microsoft would be out of business by now.</p>
<p>The only way that Microsoft (or any other organization) would be liable for this would be if they contractually agreed to such a constraint.  And, having been working with Microsoft&#8217;s agreements for over a decade, I can tell you without a doubt that they don&#8217;t have this in their template (and that they don&#8217;t come too far &#8220;off&#8221; their template, even for REALLY big deals).</p>
<p>The net-net on this is that unless there&#8217;s a larger agreement in place (for example, if Microsoft has an agreement with the W3C to keep IE compliant with the standards), Microsoft has ZERO liability (of any sort).</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26510</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26510</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I was mostly wondering if this is a concern that Mozilla or other browser developers should have as well&lt;/i&gt;

Oh! That's not how I read it at all, though your second question (that I deliberately glossed over here) should have tipped me off.

The 'I am Not A Lawyer' and in particular 'I Am Not Your Lawyer' disclaimers apply in full bloom here.

First, all of the things above should apply to you. As long as you've made no special deals with particular customers, you're probably in fairly good shape. The rest of the industry would surely join in supporting you if a case came to court.

Second, I've never seen or heard of anything cases like this, though admittedly have not looked hard for it nor taken any applicable courses.

Finally, you're not &lt;i&gt;selling&lt;/i&gt; anything, so even if there were court-created liability, it isn't clear what kinds of damages you'd be liable for. Courts are still fairly sensitive to 'get what you pay for'-style arguments, and I have to imagine they'd be particularly sensitive in the FLOSS context. So it is entirely possible a court could say 'Mozilla is liable... for a zero dollar penalty.'

But yeah...  definitely recommend talking to Your Lawyers about the question before one goes about blithely relying on my opinions on this. Vast difference on my part between saying 'you should be suspicious of another party's claim' and 'hey, you're fine, don't sweat it!'</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I was mostly wondering if this is a concern that Mozilla or other browser developers should have as well</i></p>
<p>Oh! That&#8217;s not how I read it at all, though your second question (that I deliberately glossed over here) should have tipped me off.</p>
<p>The &#8216;I am Not A Lawyer&#8217; and in particular &#8216;I Am Not Your Lawyer&#8217; disclaimers apply in full bloom here.</p>
<p>First, all of the things above should apply to you. As long as you&#8217;ve made no special deals with particular customers, you&#8217;re probably in fairly good shape. The rest of the industry would surely join in supporting you if a case came to court.</p>
<p>Second, I&#8217;ve never seen or heard of anything cases like this, though admittedly have not looked hard for it nor taken any applicable courses.</p>
<p>Finally, you&#8217;re not <i>selling</i> anything, so even if there were court-created liability, it isn&#8217;t clear what kinds of damages you&#8217;d be liable for. Courts are still fairly sensitive to &#8216;get what you pay for&#8217;-style arguments, and I have to imagine they&#8217;d be particularly sensitive in the FLOSS context. So it is entirely possible a court could say &#8216;Mozilla is liable&#8230; for a zero dollar penalty.&#8217;</p>
<p>But yeah&#8230;  definitely recommend talking to Your Lawyers about the question before one goes about blithely relying on my opinions on this. Vast difference on my part between saying &#8216;you should be suspicious of another party&#8217;s claim&#8217; and &#8216;hey, you&#8217;re fine, don&#8217;t sweat it!&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Shaver</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26509</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Shaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26509</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Luis; that's a great read.  I know we need to deal with the standards groups in good faith, and I'm not sure it helps us much to determine whether or not MSFT is doing the same.  (I have my suspicions, but they don't really help inform decisions.)

I was mostly wondering if this is a concern that Mozilla or other browser developers should have as well -- if Microsoft has created their own liability through custom contracts, as you say, then that's their unusual bed to lie in, and not a burden that should be imposed on the rest of the process or industry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Luis; that&#8217;s a great read.  I know we need to deal with the standards groups in good faith, and I&#8217;m not sure it helps us much to determine whether or not MSFT is doing the same.  (I have my suspicions, but they don&#8217;t really help inform decisions.)</p>
<p>I was mostly wondering if this is a concern that Mozilla or other browser developers should have as well &#8212; if Microsoft has created their own liability through custom contracts, as you say, then that&#8217;s their unusual bed to lie in, and not a burden that should be imposed on the rest of the process or industry.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26508</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:39:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26508</guid>
		<description>Robert: it should have been about 1/2 the length, on re-reading. As we all know, that takes much more time. ;)

Karl: if you're trying to deal with someone in good faith, you sort of have an obligation to not get them sued if you can. I think implicit in Shaver's question was 'is Microsoft dealing with us in good faith' or 'do we need to deal with them in good faith'; you can draw your own conclusions on that after this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert: it should have been about 1/2 the length, on re-reading. As we all know, that takes much more time. ;)</p>
<p>Karl: if you&#8217;re trying to deal with someone in good faith, you sort of have an obligation to not get them sued if you can. I think implicit in Shaver&#8217;s question was &#8216;is Microsoft dealing with us in good faith&#8217; or &#8216;do we need to deal with them in good faith&#8217;; you can draw your own conclusions on that after this post.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Love</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26507</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26507</guid>
		<description>Excellent post, Luis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post, Luis.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl Lattimer</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26506</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl Lattimer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:32:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26506</guid>
		<description>I think I'd like to be the first to say, who the hell cares if microsoft gets sued, its not exactly a new thing :) and either way they can hardly use that as a defense for not updating an antiquated standard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;d like to be the first to say, who the hell cares if microsoft gets sued, its not exactly a new thing :) and either way they can hardly use that as a defense for not updating an antiquated standard.</p>
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		<title>By:  ” Twinkle Twinkle Little Star !!! “ » Catch me, if you can</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26542</link>
		<dc:creator> ” Twinkle Twinkle Little Star !!! “ » Catch me, if you can</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26542</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt;Mike, it seems possible but highly, highly unlikely that there is legal liability.  [Ed. later: see also my response to Mike in comments, on the question of whether or not this type of liability is something Mozilla should be worried about.]  More:continued herePowered by Opentechs                ” Twinkle Twinkle Little Star !!! “ » Catch me, if you can&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a class="technorati-balloon" href="http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?url="><img src="http://static.technorati.com/images/bubble_h17.gif" class="technorati-balloon" alt="links from Technorati" style="border:0;" /></a>Mike, it seems possible but highly, highly unlikely that there is legal liability.  [Ed. later: see also my response to Mike in comments, on the question of whether or not this type of liability is something Mozilla should be worried about.]  More:continued herePowered by Opentechs                ” Twinkle Twinkle Little Star !!! “ » Catch me, if you can</p>
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		<title>By: Hot Links</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26543</link>
		<dc:creator>Hot Links</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/25/shaver-asks-some-interesting-questions-about-microsoft-and-legal-liability/#comment-26543</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt;Luis Villa’s Blog / shaver asks some interesting questions about Microsoft and legal liability4 hours ago  wearehugh : Luis Villa’s Blog / shaver asks some interesting questions about Microsoft and legal liability - basically, microsoft is either full of shit or has insanely incompetent lawyers. dunno about you, but i'm leaning towards&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a class="technorati-balloon" href="http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?url="><img src="http://static.technorati.com/images/bubble_h17.gif" class="technorati-balloon" alt="links from Technorati" style="border:0;" /></a>Luis Villa’s Blog / shaver asks some interesting questions about Microsoft and legal liability4 hours ago  wearehugh : Luis Villa’s Blog / shaver asks some interesting questions about Microsoft and legal liability - basically, microsoft is either full of shit or has insanely incompetent lawyers. dunno about you, but i&#8217;m leaning towards</p>
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