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	<title>Comments on: considering Lessig</title>
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	<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/</link>
	<description>Ramblings on software, law, and the spaces in between.</description>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26523</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26523</guid>
		<description>[BTW, JB, I have no idea why, but your posts are all getting flagged as spam by my blog; sorry about the delay in posting them.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[BTW, JB, I have no idea why, but your posts are all getting flagged as spam by my blog; sorry about the delay in posting them.]</p>
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		<title>By: techPresident &#8211; Lessig Opts Out, Citing Compressed Schedule</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26514</link>
		<dc:creator>techPresident &#8211; Lessig Opts Out, Citing Compressed Schedule</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26514</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] running in the fall isn&#039;t much better If he were to run in the fall, he&#039;d have to be on the dem. primary line in June- which isn&#039;t much more time than the special election, really. So this is almost certainly the end of this particular dream right now. I&#039;m personally glad- Lessig is a hero of mine, but this was not the right time for him yet. [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] running in the fall isn&#8217;t much better If he were to run in the fall, he&#8217;d have to be on the dem. primary line in June- which isn&#8217;t much more time than the special election, really. So this is almost certainly the end of this particular dream right now. I&#8217;m personally glad- Lessig is a hero of mine, but this was not the right time for him yet. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: J.B. Nicholson-Owens</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26511</link>
		<dc:creator>J.B. Nicholson-Owens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26511</guid>
		<description>The question is never who is perfect.  In fact perfection, as posed against the status quo, is false dichotomy.  Nothing is perfect, so perfection is never really on the table.  This leaves the status quo as if it is beyond question.  The issue concerns what Obama stands for, particularly on life and death issues.

Obama&#039;s hawkish sabre-rattling against Iran (including his hope for sanctions, see his commentary to the Chicago Tribune on September 26, 2004), Obama and Clinton&#039;s agreement that single-payer universal health care is impossible (despite http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen12212007.html Jeff Cohen &amp; Normon Solomon pointing out that a majority of Americans saying they&#039;d pay higher taxes to make universal health care happen), and Obama&#039;s continued funding of the Iraq occupation (even when Democrats control Congress) make me think nothing substantive will change under an Obama administration.

Before Prof. Lessig can be sent to Congress he too will have to deal with these issues, not just debates about copyright.  If Lessig does run for Congress let&#039;s hope his platform includes clear stances on properly restricting corporate power replete with specific examples of what he&#039;d do to address corporate crime, fraud, waste, and abuse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question is never who is perfect.  In fact perfection, as posed against the status quo, is false dichotomy.  Nothing is perfect, so perfection is never really on the table.  This leaves the status quo as if it is beyond question.  The issue concerns what Obama stands for, particularly on life and death issues.</p>
<p>Obama&#8217;s hawkish sabre-rattling against Iran (including his hope for sanctions, see his commentary to the Chicago Tribune on September 26, 2004), Obama and Clinton&#8217;s agreement that single-payer universal health care is impossible (despite <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen12212007.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.counterpunch.org/cohen12212007.html</a> Jeff Cohen &amp; Normon Solomon pointing out that a majority of Americans saying they&#8217;d pay higher taxes to make universal health care happen), and Obama&#8217;s continued funding of the Iraq occupation (even when Democrats control Congress) make me think nothing substantive will change under an Obama administration.</p>
<p>Before Prof. Lessig can be sent to Congress he too will have to deal with these issues, not just debates about copyright.  If Lessig does run for Congress let&#8217;s hope his platform includes clear stances on properly restricting corporate power replete with specific examples of what he&#8217;d do to address corporate crime, fraud, waste, and abuse.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26504</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26504</guid>
		<description>JB: certainly; I didn&#039;t mean to imply by the link that Obama is perfect. Every candidate is going to have buckets like that, even if the corporation itself (or their lobbyist representatives) is barred. 

This is really a great example of why Frank is right- corporations will always seek to benefit themselves in the system, no matter what rules you put in place. So we have to go further than Lessig&#039;s proposal, and enable and empower individuals rather than just hobbling &#039;special interests&#039;, however you want to define them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JB: certainly; I didn&#8217;t mean to imply by the link that Obama is perfect. Every candidate is going to have buckets like that, even if the corporation itself (or their lobbyist representatives) is barred. </p>
<p>This is really a great example of why Frank is right- corporations will always seek to benefit themselves in the system, no matter what rules you put in place. So we have to go further than Lessig&#8217;s proposal, and enable and empower individuals rather than just hobbling &#8216;special interests&#8217;, however you want to define them.</p>
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		<title>By: J.B. Nicholson-Owens</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26488</link>
		<dc:creator>J.B. Nicholson-Owens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26488</guid>
		<description>You link to an article where Obama refused $100 from a registered federal lobbyist.  According to Jeffrey St. Clair and Joshua Frank (see http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair07042007.html for the rest of the article):

&quot;The Obama campaign, as of late March 2007, has accepted $159,800 from executives and employees of Exelon, the nation&#039;s largest nuclear power plant operator.

The Illinois-based company also helped Obama&#039;s 2004 senatorial campaign. As Ken Silverstein reported in the November 2006 issue of Harper&#039;s, &quot;[Exelon] is Obama&#039;s fourth largest patron, having donated a total of $74,350 to his campaigns. During debate on the 2005 energy bill, Obama helped to vote down an amendment that would have killed vast loan guarantees for power-plant operators to develop new energy projects the public will not only pay millions of dollars in loan costs but will risk losing billions of dollars if the companies default.&quot;

&quot;Senator Obama has all the necessary leadership skills required to be president,&#039;&#039; says Frank M. Clark, chairman of Exelon&#039;s Commonwealth Edison utility.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You link to an article where Obama refused $100 from a registered federal lobbyist.  According to Jeffrey St. Clair and Joshua Frank (see <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair07042007.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair07042007.html</a> for the rest of the article):</p>
<p>&#8220;The Obama campaign, as of late March 2007, has accepted $159,800 from executives and employees of Exelon, the nation&#8217;s largest nuclear power plant operator.</p>
<p>The Illinois-based company also helped Obama&#8217;s 2004 senatorial campaign. As Ken Silverstein reported in the November 2006 issue of Harper&#8217;s, &#8220;[Exelon] is Obama&#8217;s fourth largest patron, having donated a total of $74,350 to his campaigns. During debate on the 2005 energy bill, Obama helped to vote down an amendment that would have killed vast loan guarantees for power-plant operators to develop new energy projects the public will not only pay millions of dollars in loan costs but will risk losing billions of dollars if the companies default.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Senator Obama has all the necessary leadership skills required to be president,&#8221; says Frank M. Clark, chairman of Exelon&#8217;s Commonwealth Edison utility.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Hecker</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26479</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Hecker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26479</guid>
		<description>I take your point about the messaging. Before commenting further I think I need to go off and actually listen to the message in question :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take your point about the messaging. Before commenting further I think I need to go off and actually listen to the message in question :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26478</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 14:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26478</guid>
		<description>No, great comments, Frank. I agree completely with this kind of thinking, as I noted in the post.

Unfortunately, that doesn&#039;t help the messaging, which I think was Ethan&#039;s question, and one where I have less constructive feedback for Lessig.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, great comments, Frank. I agree completely with this kind of thinking, as I noted in the post.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, that doesn&#8217;t help the messaging, which I think was Ethan&#8217;s question, and one where I have less constructive feedback for Lessig.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank Hecker</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26477</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank Hecker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26477</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t have any brilliant solutions to offer either. however I think it&#039;s possible to get at least a general idea of what possible solutions might look like, again arguing by analogy from the copyright case.

First, as I implied above I think that corporate lobbying is here to stay for reasons of economics if nothing else, and that attempts to restrict it in major ways through Congress or the courts will probably be as unsuccessful as previous attempts to reform copyright in major ways (e.g. Eldred). The alternative approach (by analogy to copyright) is the creation of mechanisms to promote an alternative world of effective lobbying by citizens, just as the GPL and other FOSS licenses created an alternative domain to the proprietary software industry.

Second, as noted above we need to reduce the barriers to entry for citizen lobbyists by providing them inexpensive and effective tools that they themselves can control and enhance -- the lobbying equivalent to the GNU tools and other technologies that spurred FOSS development (e.g., online source code repositories, bug systems, Internet-based distribution mechanisms, etc.) Such a citizen lobbyist toolset would enable individuals to know where to lobby, about what, and to whom; it would also enable them to collaborate effectively with each other and form larger &quot;lobbying projects&quot; (analogous to FOSS projects) to combine their efforts to be more effective. Ideally as with the FOSS world more fundamental tools could be combined to create higher-level &quot;lobbying applications&quot; that would both provide more extensive capabilities and also be accessible to and hackable by more people.

Third, as in the FOSS world (and unlike the proprietary software world) the returns to most individual participants in citizen lobbying will be primarily non-economic (at least in the sense that they won&#039;t involve immediate economic rewards). The most effective approaches to citizen lobbying will be those that are designed to leverage that fact, e.g.., by building positive emotional connections between individuals doing the lobbying (who might have little or no economic stake in the issue) and the individuals (not necessarily the same ones) affected by the issue at question. (The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kiva.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kiva microfinance system&lt;/a&gt; is an example of this in a somewhat related area.)

Fourth, just as FOSS developers and activists have built sometimes problematic but generally productive relationships with corporations such as IBM, Sun, Red Hat, etc., individual lobbyists will need to find ways to productively cooperate with corporate lobbying efforts when and where it makes sense, as opposed to just painting all such efforts as negative. (This works in reverse too: If citizen lobbying efforts become more effective then corporate lobbyists will have to become more sophisticated in their efforts to work with them, as opposed to following traditional &quot;Astroturf lobbying&quot; approaches.)

 By analogy with the FOSS world, the end vision would be of a robust &quot;citizen lobbying ecosystem&quot; that includes effective activities by multiple actors at multiple levels: spontaneous lobbying campaigns by individuals and small groups, larger more formalized campaigns institutionalized either in separate NGOs (analogous to FOSS nonprofits) or under umbrella NGOs (analogous to the Software Freedom Conservancy and similar efforts), cooperative efforts with corporate players whose interests are aligned, and possibly hybrid organizations that combine aspects of citizen lobbying organizations and political parties. (I consider the latter more unlikely at the national level, given the way the US electoral system is structured, but they might emerge at a local level.)

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I apologize for the length of these ramblings (and I really should make a separate blog post about this) but I thought you and possibly others might have at least some interest in them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t have any brilliant solutions to offer either. however I think it&#8217;s possible to get at least a general idea of what possible solutions might look like, again arguing by analogy from the copyright case.</p>
<p>First, as I implied above I think that corporate lobbying is here to stay for reasons of economics if nothing else, and that attempts to restrict it in major ways through Congress or the courts will probably be as unsuccessful as previous attempts to reform copyright in major ways (e.g. Eldred). The alternative approach (by analogy to copyright) is the creation of mechanisms to promote an alternative world of effective lobbying by citizens, just as the GPL and other FOSS licenses created an alternative domain to the proprietary software industry.</p>
<p>Second, as noted above we need to reduce the barriers to entry for citizen lobbyists by providing them inexpensive and effective tools that they themselves can control and enhance &#8212; the lobbying equivalent to the GNU tools and other technologies that spurred FOSS development (e.g., online source code repositories, bug systems, Internet-based distribution mechanisms, etc.) Such a citizen lobbyist toolset would enable individuals to know where to lobby, about what, and to whom; it would also enable them to collaborate effectively with each other and form larger &#8220;lobbying projects&#8221; (analogous to FOSS projects) to combine their efforts to be more effective. Ideally as with the FOSS world more fundamental tools could be combined to create higher-level &#8220;lobbying applications&#8221; that would both provide more extensive capabilities and also be accessible to and hackable by more people.</p>
<p>Third, as in the FOSS world (and unlike the proprietary software world) the returns to most individual participants in citizen lobbying will be primarily non-economic (at least in the sense that they won&#8217;t involve immediate economic rewards). The most effective approaches to citizen lobbying will be those that are designed to leverage that fact, e.g.., by building positive emotional connections between individuals doing the lobbying (who might have little or no economic stake in the issue) and the individuals (not necessarily the same ones) affected by the issue at question. (The <a href="http://www.kiva.org/" rel="nofollow">Kiva microfinance system</a> is an example of this in a somewhat related area.)</p>
<p>Fourth, just as FOSS developers and activists have built sometimes problematic but generally productive relationships with corporations such as IBM, Sun, Red Hat, etc., individual lobbyists will need to find ways to productively cooperate with corporate lobbying efforts when and where it makes sense, as opposed to just painting all such efforts as negative. (This works in reverse too: If citizen lobbying efforts become more effective then corporate lobbyists will have to become more sophisticated in their efforts to work with them, as opposed to following traditional &#8220;Astroturf lobbying&#8221; approaches.)</p>
<p> By analogy with the FOSS world, the end vision would be of a robust &#8220;citizen lobbying ecosystem&#8221; that includes effective activities by multiple actors at multiple levels: spontaneous lobbying campaigns by individuals and small groups, larger more formalized campaigns institutionalized either in separate NGOs (analogous to FOSS nonprofits) or under umbrella NGOs (analogous to the Software Freedom Conservancy and similar efforts), cooperative efforts with corporate players whose interests are aligned, and possibly hybrid organizations that combine aspects of citizen lobbying organizations and political parties. (I consider the latter more unlikely at the national level, given the way the US electoral system is structured, but they might emerge at a local level.)</p>
<p>Anyway, those are my thoughts. I apologize for the length of these ramblings (and I really should make a separate blog post about this) but I thought you and possibly others might have at least some interest in them.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26476</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26476</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Unfortunately, Lessig doesn’t allow funding by non-permanent residents, even those who have valid working visa in the US…&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s federal election funding rules, not Lessig, I&#039;m pretty certain.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Unfortunately, Lessig doesn’t allow funding by non-permanent residents, even those who have valid working visa in the US…</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s federal election funding rules, not Lessig, I&#8217;m pretty certain.</p>
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		<title>By: Ronald S. Bultje</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/comment-page-1/#comment-26475</link>
		<dc:creator>Ronald S. Bultje</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Feb 2008 13:37:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2008/02/21/considering-lessig/#comment-26475</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, Lessig doesn&#039;t allow funding by non-permanent residents, even those who have valid working visa in the US...

Other than that, great news, can&#039;t wait for him to really run, and I hope his influence will be as good as it was in the CC movement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, Lessig doesn&#8217;t allow funding by non-permanent residents, even those who have valid working visa in the US&#8230;</p>
<p>Other than that, great news, can&#8217;t wait for him to really run, and I hope his influence will be as good as it was in the CC movement.</p>
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