Comments on: why I use gmail (or, the list of daily worries of a self-hoster) http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/ Ramblings on software, law, and the spaces in between. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 14:23:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: KateVershovSecondPaper - CompPrivConst - TWiki http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-29256 KateVershovSecondPaper - CompPrivConst - TWiki Fri, 29 May 2009 05:21:34 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-29256 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] as gmail, Facebook and cloud computing in general, seem perfectly logical on their face. Luis Villa argues that such services are growing in popularity and will probably remain with us indefinitely because [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] as gmail, Facebook and cloud computing in general, seem perfectly logical on their face. Luis Villa argues that such services are growing in popularity and will probably remain with us indefinitely because [...]

]]> By: mlinksva and friends - Identi.ca http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-27825 mlinksva and friends - Identi.ca Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:55:47 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-27825 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] yes, I know, gmail... http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/ [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] yes, I know, gmail… http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/ [...]

]]> By: Cynic http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25924 Cynic Sun, 09 Dec 2007 05:10:38 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25924 Sandy, on reason to use gmail+IMAP+Thunderbird2 over gmail-through-the-web is it let's you ditch google's cookie from following your habits across other google web service (blogger, youtube). Sandy, on reason to use gmail+IMAP+Thunderbird2 over gmail-through-the-web is it let’s you ditch google’s cookie from following your habits across other google web service (blogger, youtube).

]]> By: 5:55 AM: Bringing Freedom to Web Apps: Introducing Forkolator http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25656 5:55 AM: Bringing Freedom to Web Apps: Introducing Forkolator Mon, 26 Nov 2007 02:38:35 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25656 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] it inevitably leads to demand for a web app for interacting with those notes. Hmm...Recently, Luis' posts on Gmail have really got me thinking about where free software fits into this whole web [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] it inevitably leads to demand for a web app for interacting with those notes. Hmm…Recently, Luis’ posts on Gmail have really got me thinking about where free software fits into this whole web [...]

]]> By: Michael R. Bernstein http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25444 Michael R. Bernstein Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:23:11 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25444 "Competitors with more money will be able to provide the same software with a better overall user experience due to better server infrastructure, so where is the incentive to open the source to your web app?" The danger is actually that a competitor will be able to take advantage of all your hard work, add some proprietary features, and *then* deploy on superior infrastructure. This is known as the 'web app loophole'. It can be closed by using a license such as the Affero GPL, at which point commercial (but nonproprietary) forks are at the usual disadvantage vis-a-vis the original reciprocally-licensed project: no community. When AGPL3 is finalized, I think we'll see a lot of new web app (and web app infrastructure) projects start in this space. “Competitors with more money will be able to provide the same software with a better overall user experience due to better server infrastructure, so where is the incentive to open the source to your web app?”

The danger is actually that a competitor will be able to take advantage of all your hard work, add some proprietary features, and *then* deploy on superior infrastructure.

This is known as the ‘web app loophole’. It can be closed by using a license such as the Affero GPL, at which point commercial (but nonproprietary) forks are at the usual disadvantage vis-a-vis the original reciprocally-licensed project: no community.

When AGPL3 is finalized, I think we’ll see a lot of new web app (and web app infrastructure) projects start in this space.

]]> By: Hack the Planet: http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25433 Hack the Planet: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 01:39:30 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25433 Kramer auto Pingback[...] Luis Villa: “This is principled software’s biggest challenge- not how to stay relevant in the face of google’s vast server farms (which are important but not insurmountable for many classes of service), but how to stay relevant in the face of how convenient centrally-hosted web software is for both users and developers.” Tim O’Reilly: OpenSocial is pointless. A little slow on the uptake, but I’m glad to see reality setting in. [...]

]]> By: Basil Gohar http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25417 Basil Gohar Wed, 07 Nov 2007 14:04:43 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25417 Luis, you've taken a plunge I'm not ready to yet. I kind of backed myself into a corner, as well, because I said a few weeks before Gmail's IMAP access was publicly announced that if they had it, I would switch. Now I'm in a state of cognitive dissonance - :-p I'm trying to find other reasons not to use Gmail. Being that I am notoriously paranoid and feel the need to self-host everything, I am still sticking to my own hosted solution. However, all your points are very valid, and I think you made the right decision for yourself, perhaps. My weights for the different values, though, are different. As it stands, my hosted IMAP solution is "Good Enough", and I also am confident that, God-willing, in time, there will be FOSS solutions that will make Gmail less outstandingly spectacular, though not necessarily inferior, compared to a self-hosted FOSS solution. Luis, you’ve taken a plunge I’m not ready to yet. I kind of backed myself into a corner, as well, because I said a few weeks before Gmail’s IMAP access was publicly announced that if they had it, I would switch. Now I’m in a state of cognitive dissonance – :-p I’m trying to find other reasons not to use Gmail. Being that I am notoriously paranoid and feel the need to self-host everything, I am still sticking to my own hosted solution. However, all your points are very valid, and I think you made the right decision for yourself, perhaps. My weights for the different values, though, are different. As it stands, my hosted IMAP solution is “Good Enough”, and I also am confident that, God-willing, in time, there will be FOSS solutions that will make Gmail less outstandingly spectacular, though not necessarily inferior, compared to a self-hosted FOSS solution.

]]> By: Enver ALTIN http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25412 Enver ALTIN Wed, 07 Nov 2007 12:20:09 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25412 One of the reasons I've switched to Gmail is, I can get out of it any time I want, taking away all my data out. Recently added, Gmail supports IMAP as well. One of the reasons I’ve switched to Gmail is, I can get out of it any time I want, taking away all my data out. Recently added, Gmail supports IMAP as well.

]]> By: ben http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25410 ben Wed, 07 Nov 2007 11:47:23 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25410 "I’m not averse to paying for Freedom, but I’m in a very, very distinct minority there, and one that is getting smaller, I think, since no one is doing a very good job of articulating why Freedom matters in a service-oriented context." - Luis I don't think it's necessarily a problem of articulation, so much as the economic problem implied in your remarks here. Free and OS Software has the inherent economic advantage over its proprietary rival that it is usually cheaper and, in some cases, much cheaper, libre and gratuit. Open Services, on the other hand, don't enjoy that advantage. At best they are going to cost the user as much as their proprietary rivals, at worst more. Perhaps the point about your use of gmail is not that you are compromising your freedom, but that you are exchanging some freedoms in return for the benefits of free hosting etc. It's a strange kind of social contract.... “I’m not averse to paying for Freedom, but I’m in a very, very distinct minority there, and one that is getting smaller, I think, since no one is doing a very good job of articulating why Freedom matters in a service-oriented context.” – Luis

I don’t think it’s necessarily a problem of articulation, so much as the economic problem implied in your remarks here. Free and OS Software has the inherent economic advantage over its proprietary rival that it is usually cheaper and, in some cases, much cheaper, libre and gratuit. Open Services, on the other hand, don’t enjoy that advantage. At best they are going to cost the user as much as their proprietary rivals, at worst more.

Perhaps the point about your use of gmail is not that you are compromising your freedom, but that you are exchanging some freedoms in return for the benefits of free hosting etc. It’s a strange kind of social contract….

]]> By: BeS http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/comment-page-1/#comment-25408 BeS Wed, 07 Nov 2007 10:35:42 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/why-i-use-gmail-or-the-list-of-daily-worries-of-a-self-hoster/#comment-25408 Hi Luis, interesting article but i think you make a mistake by comparing gmail with a "do it all yourself"-approach. There is also something in between. There are other mail sevices than google and if you have a homepage/domain you can host your emails there. For example i have a own domain at a (small german) service provider which uses 100% Free Software, take privacy and security really serious and even releases own software as Free Software. I trust this provider definitely more than Google. Let me try to give you an answer to this question: > I don’t see any reason to go back to any local mail, be it > IMAP, POP, or any other local delivery mechanism. What is > the benefit? If you use only a web interface you always have to be online to work on your mails. With a local client i can fetch all my mail (e.g. if i travel) than read the mails offline and write responses and the next time i have an internet connection i can send out my mails and fetch again new mails. For me that's much more convenience than an online service. Also if you use a high adaptable mail client like mutt or gnus i'm sure that you can make with it much more than with any web mailer and you can really adapt it to your needs. So you gain flexibility both in handling your mails and in regard to how your mail client works if you use a local mail client instead of a web interface. Hi Luis, interesting article but i think you make a mistake by comparing gmail with a “do it all yourself”-approach.

There is also something in between. There are other mail sevices than google and if you have a homepage/domain you can host your emails there.

For example i have a own domain at a (small german) service provider which uses 100% Free Software, take privacy and security really serious and even releases own software as Free Software.

I trust this provider definitely more than Google.

Let me try to give you an answer to this question:

> I don’t see any reason to go back to any local mail, be it
> IMAP, POP, or any other local delivery mechanism. What is
> the benefit?

If you use only a web interface you always have to be online to work on your mails. With a local client i can fetch all my mail (e.g. if i travel) than read the mails offline and write responses and the next time i have an internet connection i can send out my mails and fetch again new mails. For me that’s much more convenience than an online service.

Also if you use a high adaptable mail client like mutt or gnus i’m sure that you can make with it much more than with any web mailer and you can really adapt it to your needs.

So you gain flexibility both in handling your mails and in regard to how your mail client works if you use a local mail client instead of a web interface.

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