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	<title>Comments on: so Luis uses gmail. So what?</title>
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	<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/</link>
	<description>Ramblings on law school in New York, free software, and the spaces in between.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:04:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: 5:55 AM: Bringing Freedom to Web Apps: Introducing Forkolator</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25651</link>
		<dc:creator>5:55 AM: Bringing Freedom to Web Apps: Introducing Forkolator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25651</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] leads to demand for a web app for interacting with those notes. Hmm...Recently, Luis' posts on Gmail have really got me thinking about where free software fits into this whole web apps/services [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] leads to demand for a web app for interacting with those notes. Hmm&#8230;Recently, Luis&#8217; posts on Gmail have really got me thinking about where free software fits into this whole web apps/services [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Sutherland</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25447</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Sutherland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25447</guid>
		<description>I wasn't suggesting that encrypted S3/P2P is going to replace the internet in its entirety, nor is it very likely as things are currently trending.  And I am definitely not claiming any of this is here today; I only claim that it's feasible and could be made largely painless with dedicated/concerted effort by concerned parties.  I do think it can easily cover many of the personal communication bases that don't implicitly give up private information in the very near future, though (ex: e-mail and IM, which is very similar).

Things like private photo/video sharing and private blogs can be done as long as the other people have network access to the same data store.  I cryptographically sign an authorization for S3 to serve certain directories of encrypted files to my family/friends/whomever and include a copy of the symmetric key to each picture/video/blog post encrypted asymmetrically for that user.

I think the PGP/GPG web-of-trust thing can handle identity, although it's more likely for someone like google to make it popular and go with a global approach rather than a distributed mechanism.  (Or perhaps a federation of large corporate/government entities with a tenuously involved group of popular OpenID servers.)  You could probably shoe-horn social networking into this framework, but it seems diametrically opposed to why people seem to use myspace/facebook in the first place.  Unless the whole encrypted side of things lets a shady underworld flourish that people secretly want, but are afraid to expose that side of themselves on such a public forum...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wasn&#8217;t suggesting that encrypted S3/P2P is going to replace the internet in its entirety, nor is it very likely as things are currently trending.  And I am definitely not claiming any of this is here today; I only claim that it&#8217;s feasible and could be made largely painless with dedicated/concerted effort by concerned parties.  I do think it can easily cover many of the personal communication bases that don&#8217;t implicitly give up private information in the very near future, though (ex: e-mail and IM, which is very similar).</p>
<p>Things like private photo/video sharing and private blogs can be done as long as the other people have network access to the same data store.  I cryptographically sign an authorization for S3 to serve certain directories of encrypted files to my family/friends/whomever and include a copy of the symmetric key to each picture/video/blog post encrypted asymmetrically for that user.</p>
<p>I think the PGP/GPG web-of-trust thing can handle identity, although it&#8217;s more likely for someone like google to make it popular and go with a global approach rather than a distributed mechanism.  (Or perhaps a federation of large corporate/government entities with a tenuously involved group of popular OpenID servers.)  You could probably shoe-horn social networking into this framework, but it seems diametrically opposed to why people seem to use myspace/facebook in the first place.  Unless the whole encrypted side of things lets a shady underworld flourish that people secretly want, but are afraid to expose that side of themselves on such a public forum&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Felter</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25446</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Felter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25446</guid>
		<description>Maybe encrypted data storage is enough for email (Rice did some work on this: http://epostmail.org/), but there's much more to life than email. Until P2P or S3 can implement email, IM, identity, blog hosting, photo/video sharing, social networking, etc. then it's not a replacement for today's services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe encrypted data storage is enough for email (Rice did some work on this: <a href="http://epostmail.org/" rel="nofollow">http://epostmail.org/</a>), but there&#8217;s much more to life than email. Until P2P or S3 can implement email, IM, identity, blog hosting, photo/video sharing, social networking, etc. then it&#8217;s not a replacement for today&#8217;s services.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Sutherland</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25436</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Sutherland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 08:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25436</guid>
		<description>I say replace the use of the term 'p2p' here with "encrypted data storage that I don't have to worry about, reliability-wise".  That could be p2p, that could be Amazon S3, or even Google.  I think the argument can be made (re Luis' post #10, para 4) that with only moderate internet access and storage requirements, you can have search and performance with the privacy afforded by encryption.

A document search index can be stored in an encrypted form remotely; assuming we're talking keywords/faceted data (and not something weird like an XPath search over every HTML e-mail you've ever received), you will only need random access to a small subset of the data.  If latency is more of an issue than bandwidth, you can begin speculative fetching of portions of the index as the user types (slowly) on their mobile phone.  (Information leakage from the random access might be a problem, and you would still need to own/control a more powerful/connected system.)

Additionally, intelligent caching can be used to keep e-mails you are likely to care about locally, namely recent e-mails and e-mails historically of interest or involving contacts you care about.  A search index for a larger set of e-mails (perhaps still avoiding e-mails you are likely to totally not care about) could also be cached on the device.

Given the current trends of 1) faster mobile phone internet, 2) ever-larger solid-state storage, and 3) everyone carrying a cellphone, I think this is all reasonable.

I do recognize Joe Shaw's point that e-mail is currently wildly insecure by default, but it doesn't always have to be that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I say replace the use of the term &#8216;p2p&#8217; here with &#8220;encrypted data storage that I don&#8217;t have to worry about, reliability-wise&#8221;.  That could be p2p, that could be Amazon S3, or even Google.  I think the argument can be made (re Luis&#8217; post #10, para 4) that with only moderate internet access and storage requirements, you can have search and performance with the privacy afforded by encryption.</p>
<p>A document search index can be stored in an encrypted form remotely; assuming we&#8217;re talking keywords/faceted data (and not something weird like an XPath search over every HTML e-mail you&#8217;ve ever received), you will only need random access to a small subset of the data.  If latency is more of an issue than bandwidth, you can begin speculative fetching of portions of the index as the user types (slowly) on their mobile phone.  (Information leakage from the random access might be a problem, and you would still need to own/control a more powerful/connected system.)</p>
<p>Additionally, intelligent caching can be used to keep e-mails you are likely to care about locally, namely recent e-mails and e-mails historically of interest or involving contacts you care about.  A search index for a larger set of e-mails (perhaps still avoiding e-mails you are likely to totally not care about) could also be cached on the device.</p>
<p>Given the current trends of 1) faster mobile phone internet, 2) ever-larger solid-state storage, and 3) everyone carrying a cellphone, I think this is all reasonable.</p>
<p>I do recognize Joe Shaw&#8217;s point that e-mail is currently wildly insecure by default, but it doesn&#8217;t always have to be that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25430</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25430</guid>
		<description>deekayen: sure, but when my local machine goes down, I have n one to complain to either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>deekayen: sure, but when my local machine goes down, I have n one to complain to either.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Felter</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25427</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Felter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25427</guid>
		<description>Right. What we want doesn't exist yet, although for only double the price of a regular VPS you can get a "managed" VPS with automated daily off-site backups, 24x7 hardware replacement, and maybe even someone to do the security patches for you. But it's still mostly a blank box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right. What we want doesn&#8217;t exist yet, although for only double the price of a regular VPS you can get a &#8220;managed&#8221; VPS with automated daily off-site backups, 24&#215;7 hardware replacement, and maybe even someone to do the security patches for you. But it&#8217;s still mostly a blank box.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25426</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 20:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25426</guid>
		<description>Wes: fair, though I don't think the barrier for most of us is money- as I pointed out (perhaps in the other post's comments?) I'm willing to pay for freedom, but I've yet to actually find a host which both handles the shitwork /and/ gives me meaningful amounts of freedom- you seem to either get a set of dumb, locked-down services, or a blank box. (I currently pay for the blank box for tieguy.org.) I'm all ears, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wes: fair, though I don&#8217;t think the barrier for most of us is money- as I pointed out (perhaps in the other post&#8217;s comments?) I&#8217;m willing to pay for freedom, but I&#8217;ve yet to actually find a host which both handles the shitwork /and/ gives me meaningful amounts of freedom- you seem to either get a set of dumb, locked-down services, or a blank box. (I currently pay for the blank box for tieguy.org.) I&#8217;m all ears, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes Felter</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25425</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes Felter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25425</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;to not worry - to put the responsibility on someone else’s shoulders - is not to be undervalued. People will make many compromises, in functionality and in other freedoms, in order to reduce that worry and get that security.&lt;/i&gt;

There is another axis of compromise. If you are willing to pay money (a shocking concept, I know) then you can have reliability and retain functionality and freedom -- today this is called a VPS but who knows what it may evolve into. PC "system administration" isn't that hard today, so there is hope that servers can be made equally easy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>to not worry - to put the responsibility on someone else’s shoulders - is not to be undervalued. People will make many compromises, in functionality and in other freedoms, in order to reduce that worry and get that security.</i></p>
<p>There is another axis of compromise. If you are willing to pay money (a shocking concept, I know) then you can have reliability and retain functionality and freedom &#8212; today this is called a VPS but who knows what it may evolve into. PC &#8220;system administration&#8221; isn&#8217;t that hard today, so there is hope that servers can be made equally easy.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25424</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25424</guid>
		<description>Thanks for bearing with me as I refine the argument.

I'm not even sure that offline matters that much for most people and most applications. We'll have wifi in planes shortly, and I got net access via cell in the middle of the swamp of central Florida a couple months ago. (I got there via swamp buggy, but I 'watched' game 3 of the world series on my blackberry.)

The work in maintaining a web browser: finding a device with a web browser is easy, and requires approximately no work. Within 2-3 years, your TV will have it (via Wii or something else), your phone will have it (via iphone or gphone or blackberry or something else), and every computer you own will practically boot into it. It will take effort to find a device with a display that does not have a competent web browser. The data will be stored remotely, so the most failure-prone part of the device (the hard drive) will be irrelevant. If for some reason the browser in one device doesn't work, you'll just pick up the browser in one of the other two devices within reach.

Note that p2p only solves some problems- in particular, if you want to store data elsewhere, you have difficulty with search or performance or data security- you don't get all of them.  If you don't want to your own data elsewhere, you then run into the same problems you've currently got- to reliably access from anywhere, you've got to have always-on and high-bandwidth from whereever your primary host is- either home (which makes it your problem) or colo (which means you've got to contract with a colo.)

I do agree with you that anyone who wants to advance freedom would be best off dropping everything else they are doing and working on solving self-hosting p2p. Or at least, some solution where data is controlled by the user instead of the service- openauth and openid seem potentially promising here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for bearing with me as I refine the argument.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not even sure that offline matters that much for most people and most applications. We&#8217;ll have wifi in planes shortly, and I got net access via cell in the middle of the swamp of central Florida a couple months ago. (I got there via swamp buggy, but I &#8216;watched&#8217; game 3 of the world series on my blackberry.)</p>
<p>The work in maintaining a web browser: finding a device with a web browser is easy, and requires approximately no work. Within 2-3 years, your TV will have it (via Wii or something else), your phone will have it (via iphone or gphone or blackberry or something else), and every computer you own will practically boot into it. It will take effort to find a device with a display that does not have a competent web browser. The data will be stored remotely, so the most failure-prone part of the device (the hard drive) will be irrelevant. If for some reason the browser in one device doesn&#8217;t work, you&#8217;ll just pick up the browser in one of the other two devices within reach.</p>
<p>Note that p2p only solves some problems- in particular, if you want to store data elsewhere, you have difficulty with search or performance or data security- you don&#8217;t get all of them.  If you don&#8217;t want to your own data elsewhere, you then run into the same problems you&#8217;ve currently got- to reliably access from anywhere, you&#8217;ve got to have always-on and high-bandwidth from whereever your primary host is- either home (which makes it your problem) or colo (which means you&#8217;ve got to contract with a colo.)</p>
<p>I do agree with you that anyone who wants to advance freedom would be best off dropping everything else they are doing and working on solving self-hosting p2p. Or at least, some solution where data is controlled by the user instead of the service- openauth and openid seem potentially promising here.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25423</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2007 15:42:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/11/06/so-luis-uses-gmail-so-what/#comment-25423</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; You know, because I have a lot of free time these days.&lt;/i&gt;
As I mentioned the other day, I hate you. Love to the missus, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> You know, because I have a lot of free time these days.</i><br />
As I mentioned the other day, I hate you. Love to the missus, though.</p>
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