Comments on: freedom ‘for users’- which users did you mean, exactly? (or, of users, user-deployers, and user-consumers) http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/ Ramblings on law school in New York, free software, and the spaces in between. Wed, 03 Dec 2008 02:28:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: A Microsoft Veteran Embraces Open Source - SuperSite Blog http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-28678 A Microsoft Veteran Embraces Open Source - SuperSite Blog Tue, 02 Dec 2008 21:11:13 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-28678 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] GPL is full of contradictions ( tieguy.org/.../freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-use... ), and Stallman is a blowhard who has no quams about making money TALKING about free software. [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] GPL is full of contradictions ( tieguy.org/…/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-use… ), and Stallman is a blowhard who has no quams about making money TALKING about free software. [...]

]]> By: Luis Villa’s Blog / freedom ‘for users’- which users did you mean, exactly? (or, of users, user-deployers, and user-consumers) | Twine http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-28226 Luis Villa’s Blog / freedom ‘for users’- which users did you mean, exactly? (or, of users, user-deployers, and user-consumers) | Twine Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:17:08 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-28226 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] Shared by Elena Benito-Ruiz to FLOSS on 10/15/2008 [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] Shared by Elena Benito-Ruiz to FLOSS on 10/15/2008 [...]

]]> By: Richard Stallman is warning *us* about cloud computing?!? | The Open Road - The Business and Politics of Open Source by Matt Asay - CNET News http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-28072 Richard Stallman is warning *us* about cloud computing?!? | The Open Road - The Business and Politics of Open Source by Matt Asay - CNET News Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:19:33 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-28072 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] But Stallman's biggest fault here is that he criticizes a problem that his own inaction created. [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] But Stallman’s biggest fault here is that he criticizes a problem that his own inaction created. [...]

]]> By: SunMink Without the Links http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-27462 SunMink Without the Links Mon, 07 Jul 2008 15:24:07 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-27462 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] by various companies and individuals, and discussed this with various people (most recently Luis Villa), it seems to me that there are four different roles. These [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] by various companies and individuals, and discussed this with various people (most recently Luis Villa), it seems to me that there are four different roles. These [...]

]]> By: Open Parenthesis » Web 2.0 - The Power Behind the Hype http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24740 Open Parenthesis » Web 2.0 - The Power Behind the Hype Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:24:02 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24740 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] SPREE: 18 Sites for Social Shopping & DealsLuis Villa?s Blog / freedom ?for users?- which users did you mean, exactly? (or, of users, user-depl...Web 2.0 and the CEO | Perspectives | CNET News.comStyleFeeder Launches Social Browsing ToolGoogle [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] SPREE: 18 Sites for Social Shopping & DealsLuis Villa?s Blog / freedom ?for users?- which users did you mean, exactly? (or, of users, user-depl…Web 2.0 and the CEO | Perspectives | CNET News.comStyleFeeder Launches Social Browsing ToolGoogle [...]

]]> By: Simon Phipps, SunMink: links for 2007-08-09 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24737 Simon Phipps, SunMink: links for 2007-08-09 Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:43:00 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24737 <!--%kramer-ref-pre%-->[...] freedom ‘for users’- which users did you mean, exactly? Luis Vila latches on to the same issue with defining "software freedom" that I tried to get at when I differentiated between "co-developers" and "deployer-developers" in the context of open source. [...]<!--%kramer-ref-post%--> Kramer auto Pingback[...] freedom ‘for users’- which users did you mean, exactly? Luis Vila latches on to the same issue with defining “software freedom” that I tried to get at when I differentiated between “co-developers” and “deployer-developers” in the context of open source. [...]

]]> By: Crosbie Fitch http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24731 Crosbie Fitch Thu, 09 Aug 2007 15:46:43 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24731 I've posted another 'differently coherent' response on my blog to Chris Marino's comment #13. http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/index.php?id=78 I’ve posted another ‘differently coherent’ response on my blog to Chris Marino’s comment #13.
http://www.digitalproductions.co.uk/index.php?id=78

]]> By: Luis http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24726 Luis Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:55:19 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24726 Chris: agreed that 'users' and such are pretty terrible terms for a license; I'm seeking here to understand the problem (and FSF/OSI/etc.'s tepid reaction to it) more than I am to actually define solutions at this point. Chris: agreed that ‘users’ and such are pretty terrible terms for a license; I’m seeking here to understand the problem (and FSF/OSI/etc.’s tepid reaction to it) more than I am to actually define solutions at this point.

]]> By: SnapLogic Blog » Free as in free rider…. http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24725 SnapLogic Blog » Free as in free rider…. Thu, 09 Aug 2007 06:02:38 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24725 [...] Villa introduces here the notion of ‘user-deployers’ and ‘user-consumers’ to distinguish between [...] [...] Villa introduces here the notion of ‘user-deployers’ and ‘user-consumers’ to distinguish between [...]

]]> By: Chris Marino http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24724 Chris Marino Thu, 09 Aug 2007 02:49:16 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/08/07/freedom-for-users-which-users-did-you-mean-exactly-or-of-users-user-deployers-and-user-consumers/#comment-24724 Luis, you've taking my <a href="http://blog.snaplogic.org/?p=65" rel="nofollow">post </a>slightly out of context, but that's neither here nor there.... w.r.t. software freedoms, I don't think you can discuss users, freedoms, etc. in isolation from the economic dimension to this issue. The cry for closing the ASP loophole is <strong>overwhelmingly </strong>driven by the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem" rel="nofollow">free rider problem</a>, and not the desire to be more 'free' (as in freedom). When the objective to maximize economic utility, there is never any hesitation to favor some rights over another. So why not here?? When I asked Eben about this he specifically indicated that FSF felt that economic utility was maximized (my words, not his) by <strong>not </strong>favoring anyone's freedoms. Which is where we disagree. As far as the AGPL goes, that's a tepid solution and one that I personally think is <a href="http://blog.snaplogic.org/?p=47" rel="nofollow">awful</a>. Let's not forget that these are licenses, not policy statements. Perhaps that's where the crux of the divergence lies. The minute you introduce vague, poorly defined, overloaded terms like 'freedom' and 'users' into a license you're asking for trouble. Terms like 'convey' and 'distribute' have been circumscribed to avoid the inevitable rights conflicts between user-developers and user-consumer. Luis, you’ve taking my post slightly out of context, but that’s neither here nor there….

w.r.t. software freedoms, I don’t think you can discuss users, freedoms, etc. in isolation from the economic dimension to this
issue. The cry for closing the ASP loophole is overwhelmingly driven by the free rider problem, and not the desire to be more ‘free’ (as in freedom). When the objective to maximize economic utility, there is never any hesitation to favor some rights
over another. So why not here?? When I asked Eben about this he specifically indicated that FSF felt that economic utility was maximized (my words, not his) by not favoring anyone’s freedoms.

Which is where we disagree.

As far as the AGPL goes, that’s a tepid solution and one that I personally think is awful.

Let’s not forget that these are licenses, not policy statements. Perhaps that’s where the crux of the divergence lies. The minute you introduce vague, poorly defined, overloaded terms like ‘freedom’ and ‘users’ into a license you’re asking for trouble.

Terms like ‘convey’ and ‘distribute’ have been circumscribed to avoid the inevitable rights conflicts between user-developers and user-consumer.

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