Comments on: Red Hat’s mindshare, and my summer internship http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/ Ramblings on law school in New York, free software, and the spaces in between. Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:27:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Luis Villa’s Blog / thoughts on a summer at Red Hat http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-24849 Luis Villa’s Blog / thoughts on a summer at Red Hat Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:03:57 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-24849 [...] it to friends- which is about the highest praise you can give a company. So I made the right call deciding to go to Red Hat, I think it is a good place to work overall, and I’d certainly consider going back at some [...] [...] it to friends- which is about the highest praise you can give a company. So I made the right call deciding to go to Red Hat, I think it is a good place to work overall, and I’d certainly consider going back at some [...]

]]> By: Luis Villa’s Blog » another dream job I’m just a little too late for ;) http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-7059 Luis Villa’s Blog » another dream job I’m just a little too late for ;) Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:19:56 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-7059 [...] One of the things that makes me think I did the right thing going to law school is that every so often incredible jobs in very cool law offices open up. I’ve snagged an internship in one of those places, of course, but there are others. The latest such dream opening is at Creative Commons, where their general counsel, Mia Garlick, is apparently moving on to greener fields. (No idea what those are or could be… :) From the one conversation we’ve had (right before this picture was taken) and some lurking of mine on the cc-license mailing list, Mia seems like a very sharp cookie- I wish her luck wherever she goes next. I hear that there were over 100 applications for EFF’s last legal opening, and I’m sure this one will be similarly contested. Good luck to whoever gets it next… [...] [...] One of the things that makes me think I did the right thing going to law school is that every so often incredible jobs in very cool law offices open up. I’ve snagged an internship in one of those places, of course, but there are others. The latest such dream opening is at Creative Commons, where their general counsel, Mia Garlick, is apparently moving on to greener fields. (No idea what those are or could be… :) From the one conversation we’ve had (right before this picture was taken) and some lurking of mine on the cc-license mailing list, Mia seems like a very sharp cookie- I wish her luck wherever she goes next. I hear that there were over 100 applications for EFF’s last legal opening, and I’m sure this one will be similarly contested. Good luck to whoever gets it next… [...]

]]> By: Máirín Duffy http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-6155 Máirín Duffy Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:57:16 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-6155 As a former RH intern and current RH employee, I wanted to say welcome aboard! I hope you enjoy your summer here. :) As a former RH intern and current RH employee, I wanted to say welcome aboard! I hope you enjoy your summer here. :)

]]> By: Christopher Aillon http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-6135 Christopher Aillon Wed, 31 Jan 2007 06:25:56 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-6135 Roc: I would refute your claim that Red Hat does not contribute much to Mozilla these days. Just because I personally have not done as much as I used to in Gecko does not mean that we have stopped contributing. Our contributions are still numerous, though you may not have noticed as you are focused on Gecko 2/Firefox 3 work, whereas our work is in different areas. Some examples: Behdad contributed a great deal recently for example on the 1.5 branch to get Pango working with MathML, printing using the pango renderer, as well as several other important bugs in Mozilla's pango text rendering which also has fixes contributed from several members of our i18n team in APAC. Thanks go to Caius, Lawrence, Jens, and Akira (and apologies if I'm missing someone) who have helped with several bugs on that front. It is still my intention to get our updated pango work into the official 1.5 and 2.0 branches at some point even though it got denied initially as "not branch material". I realize that this code is obsoleted by work already completed for Firefox 3/Gecko 2, however, we need to make it work NOW for our customers. Other distros such as Novell have been taking Red Hat's patches and importing them into their own 1.5 and 2.0 builds (which I don't mind, but it probably went unnoticed by most people), which is why I really want these patches on the branches -- everyone should be able to get the same pango rendering for these branches. Red Hat will also help maintain the Firefox 1.5 branch after Mozilla.org has cast it aside in the next few months, as I've stated on a recent blog post. Red Hat also contributes a great deal to the browser's crypto/security story. We employ nearly half of the NSS core team and have been pushing hard on the smartcard stuff lately. This is technically not developed on the Mozilla trunk. The NSS team pushes releases first and then it gets imported into the browser tree (as does every library that the browser uses). But their work is vital to the browser as without it, there's no https support, etc. Additionally, we employ Dave Lawrence who is a contributor to Bugzilla, which might not be the bread and butter of Mozilla.org, but is still a very noteworthy product that Mozilla.org sponsors. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Roc: I would refute your claim that Red Hat does not contribute much to Mozilla these days. Just because I personally have not done as much as I used to in Gecko does not mean that we have stopped contributing. Our contributions are still numerous, though you may not have noticed as you are focused on Gecko 2/Firefox 3 work, whereas our work is in different areas.

Some examples:

Behdad contributed a great deal recently for example on the 1.5 branch to get Pango working with MathML, printing using the pango renderer, as well as several other important bugs in Mozilla’s pango text rendering which also has fixes contributed from several members of our i18n team in APAC. Thanks go to Caius, Lawrence, Jens, and Akira (and apologies if I’m missing someone) who have helped with several bugs on that front. It is still my intention to get our updated pango work into the official 1.5 and 2.0 branches at some point even though it got denied initially as “not branch material”. I realize that this code is obsoleted by work already completed for Firefox 3/Gecko 2, however, we need to make it work NOW for our customers. Other distros such as Novell have been taking Red Hat’s patches and importing them into their own 1.5 and 2.0 builds (which I don’t mind, but it probably went unnoticed by most people), which is why I really want these patches on the branches — everyone should be able to get the same pango rendering for these branches.

Red Hat will also help maintain the Firefox 1.5 branch after Mozilla.org has cast it aside in the next few months, as I’ve stated on a recent blog post.

Red Hat also contributes a great deal to the browser’s crypto/security story. We employ nearly half of the NSS core team and have been pushing hard on the smartcard stuff lately. This is technically not developed on the Mozilla trunk. The NSS team pushes releases first and then it gets imported into the browser tree (as does every library that the browser uses). But their work is vital to the browser as without it, there’s no https support, etc.

Additionally, we employ Dave Lawrence who is a contributor to Bugzilla, which might not be the bread and butter of Mozilla.org, but is still a very noteworthy product that Mozilla.org sponsors.

Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

]]> By: Luis Villa’s Blog » totally forgot- gigantic thanks (and two links on post-law school hiring) http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-6061 Luis Villa’s Blog » totally forgot- gigantic thanks (and two links on post-law school hiring) Tue, 30 Jan 2007 04:21:24 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-6061 [...] When I posted about my summer internship, I forgot to call out the one person most responsible for it happening- Chris Blizzard. Chris started talking RH up at GUADEC, saying ‘I have no idea if we have internships for lawyers, but if we do, you should come work for us.’ And he kept pushing it, and I kept listening, and he kept poking around inside RH. Many moons and some emails later, it turned out that RH did have legal internships, and voila- now I’ve got one. (In case you can’t tell, I’m still totally psyched. :) So thanks to everyone who congratulated me, but particularly thanks to Chris for really being the catalyst that made this happen. You rock, dude, even if you are Typhoid Mary. Relatedly, Sun’s General Counsel has had a very interesting blog for several months, and he wrote yesterday about their legal internship program. He’s got brief but interesting things to say about how what he sees happening in the legal job market, in terms of experience, skills, etc. Worth the minute or two of your time if you’re interested in the career side of law. Matt Asay also wrote a good post recently, focusing on how terrible the law firm experience is. Everyone should read this- learn something about whether ‘thank you’ or $160K/year is more important, even for the stereotypical soulless lawyer :) [...] [...] When I posted about my summer internship, I forgot to call out the one person most responsible for it happening- Chris Blizzard. Chris started talking RH up at GUADEC, saying ‘I have no idea if we have internships for lawyers, but if we do, you should come work for us.’ And he kept pushing it, and I kept listening, and he kept poking around inside RH. Many moons and some emails later, it turned out that RH did have legal internships, and voila- now I’ve got one. (In case you can’t tell, I’m still totally psyched. :) So thanks to everyone who congratulated me, but particularly thanks to Chris for really being the catalyst that made this happen. You rock, dude, even if you are Typhoid Mary. Relatedly, Sun’s General Counsel has had a very interesting blog for several months, and he wrote yesterday about their legal internship program. He’s got brief but interesting things to say about how what he sees happening in the legal job market, in terms of experience, skills, etc. Worth the minute or two of your time if you’re interested in the career side of law. Matt Asay also wrote a good post recently, focusing on how terrible the law firm experience is. Everyone should read this- learn something about whether ‘thank you’ or $160K/year is more important, even for the stereotypical soulless lawyer :) [...]

]]> By: Luis http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5836 Luis Wed, 24 Jan 2007 00:50:47 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5836 Yeah, all combined, though I think even for 'pure' developers Debian has slipped behind Fedora. That is obviously a statement of art/divining rather than <i>I’d probably still disagree about the reasons you mention why Debian doesn’t have the mindshare Red Hat has, but that’s probably not very important (unless you’re Debian and you’re trying to fix the situation 8-) ). </i> I'd like for Debian to fix the situation; I'd be happy to talk to any Debian developers who want to chat about improving Debian's mindshare. I think the best thing that could happen for Freeness is for Debian to replace gnewsense or gnubuntu or whatever the Free Ubuntu fork of the week is- take Freeness, run with it, and make it usable and powerful. Heh- maybe that could be a new motto for Debian desktop hackers, given where Ubuntu is trending on Freedom- 'we are the Free Ubuntu' :) (Seriously, that would be a bad motto, but it might not be a bad goal- to take back as much of Ubuntu's desktop work as possible, to the point where no one is ever tempted to do a Free Ubuntu fork. The current situation, where Ubuntu is based on the utterly, pristinely free Debian, and yet people fork Ubuntu to make it free, is ridiculous.) Yeah, all combined, though I think even for ‘pure’ developers Debian has slipped behind Fedora. That is obviously a statement of art/divining rather than

I’d probably still disagree about the reasons you mention why Debian doesn’t have the mindshare Red Hat has, but that’s probably not very important (unless you’re Debian and you’re trying to fix the situation 8-) ).

I’d like for Debian to fix the situation; I’d be happy to talk to any Debian developers who want to chat about improving Debian’s mindshare. I think the best thing that could happen for Freeness is for Debian to replace gnewsense or gnubuntu or whatever the Free Ubuntu fork of the week is- take Freeness, run with it, and make it usable and powerful. Heh- maybe that could be a new motto for Debian desktop hackers, given where Ubuntu is trending on Freedom- ‘we are the Free Ubuntu’ :) (Seriously, that would be a bad motto, but it might not be a bad goal- to take back as much of Ubuntu’s desktop work as possible, to the point where no one is ever tempted to do a Free Ubuntu fork. The current situation, where Ubuntu is based on the utterly, pristinely free Debian, and yet people fork Ubuntu to make it free, is ridiculous.)

]]> By: obi http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5834 obi Wed, 24 Jan 2007 00:42:05 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5834 Allright, I see. I think I did misunderstand what you were getting at. So, yes - when you're talking about general mind share: Red Hat is everywhere. Commercial development mind share: same thing. etc. My confusion probably came from the fact that you were talking about "developer" mindshare: I took that as "devs' systems of choice", and now I think you mean "target audience", "installed base" or even "market share" (and all of these combined, most likely). I'd probably still disagree about the reasons you mention why Debian doesn't have the mindshare Red Hat has, but that's probably not very important (unless you're Debian and you're trying to fix the situation 8-) ). Allright, I see. I think I did misunderstand what you were getting at.

So, yes - when you’re talking about general mind share: Red Hat is everywhere. Commercial development mind share: same thing. etc.

My confusion probably came from the fact that you were talking about “developer” mindshare: I took that as “devs’ systems of choice”, and now I think you mean “target audience”, “installed base” or even “market share” (and all of these combined, most likely).

I’d probably still disagree about the reasons you mention why Debian doesn’t have the mindshare Red Hat has, but that’s probably not very important (unless you’re Debian and you’re trying to fix the situation 8-) ).

]]> By: Luis http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5832 Luis Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:19:54 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5832 <i>you'd agree with people choosing KDE (or whatever) because Gnome 1.x was a terrible experience.</i> I'm not talking about 'agree with'. I'm talking about mindshare. What I think (or better yet, what I <i>should</i> think) and what the general mindshare/conventional wisdom/zeitgeist is probably have very, very little to do with each other. Example: saying 'George Bush got 51% of the votes in the last election' doesn't say anything about whether or not I agree with George Bush. Conversely, saying 'I like GNOME' says nothing about whether or not more people use/like GNOME or KDE. I think you're confused by where I say 'Debian is bad for X and Y and Z.' It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong about those things. So what if I'm wrong? I've been properly chastened; maybe I'll look at it after my spring exams. That doesn't fix Debian's larger problem- which is that in the early '00s it lost mindshare, and no matter how much better the installer is, or how much more sane the release cycle is, the mindshare is gone and it is damn hard to get it back without not just catching up but leapfrogging ahead. [And again, when talking about mindshare, Debian != Ubuntu. The two platforms aren't binary compatible; most users don't know one is based on the other; and as far as this outsider can tell, the core developers of each platform seem to be getting worse at talking to each other, not better. So... at some level, of course one could not exist without the other, but that is something experts know. Most people don't.] you’d agree with people choosing KDE (or whatever) because Gnome 1.x was a terrible experience.

I’m not talking about ‘agree with’. I’m talking about mindshare. What I think (or better yet, what I should think) and what the general mindshare/conventional wisdom/zeitgeist is probably have very, very little to do with each other. Example: saying ‘George Bush got 51% of the votes in the last election’ doesn’t say anything about whether or not I agree with George Bush. Conversely, saying ‘I like GNOME’ says nothing about whether or not more people use/like GNOME or KDE.

I think you’re confused by where I say ‘Debian is bad for X and Y and Z.’ It doesn’t matter if I’m right or wrong about those things. So what if I’m wrong? I’ve been properly chastened; maybe I’ll look at it after my spring exams. That doesn’t fix Debian’s larger problem- which is that in the early ’00s it lost mindshare, and no matter how much better the installer is, or how much more sane the release cycle is, the mindshare is gone and it is damn hard to get it back without not just catching up but leapfrogging ahead.

[And again, when talking about mindshare, Debian != Ubuntu. The two platforms aren't binary compatible; most users don't know one is based on the other; and as far as this outsider can tell, the core developers of each platform seem to be getting worse at talking to each other, not better. So... at some level, of course one could not exist without the other, but that is something experts know. Most people don't.]

]]> By: obi http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5831 obi Tue, 23 Jan 2007 23:04:55 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5831 Have to agree with Ken here. > and so whether it is deserved or not, Debian suffers from how primitive/unusable it was for several years. By the same token, you'd agree with people choosing KDE (or whatever) because Gnome 1.x was a terrible experience. You haven't tried Debian since 2001. Gnome 2.0 was released in 2002. See where I'm going with this? I agree that Debian's bickering is often painful to watch - they live up to their poster (at http://www.arouse.net/despair-linux/). Nevertheless, I don't think you're giving Debian enough credit. Most devs I encountered were on Debian, because it was just more convenient to develop on when all the build deps are just an apt-get away. As for the installer, ever since sarge it's been a lot easier and more versatile then most installers I've seen. Maybe not as pretty though. Maybe Ubuntu is where all the fun is these days, but I tend to see Ubuntu/Debian as one, because Debian needs some kick up its collective pants, and Ubuntu sure as hell wouldn't be able to survive without Debian. Have to agree with Ken here.

> and so whether it is deserved or not, Debian suffers from how primitive/unusable it was for several years.

By the same token, you’d agree with people choosing KDE (or whatever) because Gnome 1.x was a terrible experience. You haven’t tried Debian since 2001. Gnome 2.0 was released in 2002. See where I’m going with this?

I agree that Debian’s bickering is often painful to watch - they live up to their poster (at http://www.arouse.net/despair-linux/).

Nevertheless, I don’t think you’re giving Debian enough credit. Most devs I encountered were on Debian, because it was just more convenient to develop on when all the build deps are just an apt-get away. As for the installer, ever since sarge it’s been a lot easier and more versatile then most installers I’ve seen. Maybe not as pretty though.

Maybe Ubuntu is where all the fun is these days, but I tend to see Ubuntu/Debian as one, because Debian needs some kick up its collective pants, and Ubuntu sure as hell wouldn’t be able to survive without Debian.

]]> By: Luis http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5818 Luis Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:54:58 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/21/red-hats-mindshare-and-my-summer-internship/#comment-5818 <i>Not very nice.</i> Mindshare isn't very nice, though; it isn't about merits, it is about zeitgiest and conventional wisdom, and so whether it is deserved or not, Debian suffers from how primitive/unusable it was for several years. Re: Debian and Ubuntu- Ubuntu's main impact on Debian's mindshare, IMHO, is as a reminder that 'base' Debian is (1) a great foundation and (2) a terrible actual experience. That gap may be less than it was, but Ubuntu's ongoing success suggests a widespread perception that the gap is still there. Not very nice.
Mindshare isn’t very nice, though; it isn’t about merits, it is about zeitgiest and conventional wisdom, and so whether it is deserved or not, Debian suffers from how primitive/unusable it was for several years.

Re: Debian and Ubuntu- Ubuntu’s main impact on Debian’s mindshare, IMHO, is as a reminder that ‘base’ Debian is (1) a great foundation and (2) a terrible actual experience. That gap may be less than it was, but Ubuntu’s ongoing success suggests a widespread perception that the gap is still there.

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