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	<title>Comments on: more thoughts on MS and Novell (with a dash of Oracle, Sun, and Ubuntu)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/</link>
	<description>Ramblings on software, law, and the spaces in between.</description>
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		<title>By: 2006 November 09 &#124; The Technology Liberation Front</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-29381</link>
		<dc:creator>2006 November 09 &#124; The Technology Liberation Front</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Jul 2009 20:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-29381</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] Via Luis, here&#8217;s a good analysis of the ominous aspect of the Microsoft-Novell deal: This is not a religious argument about open source, it&#8217;s a matter of respect for a community that works together, and the wishes of creators. If I write something and put it under the GPL, then I want it under the GPL where all of us working on it can use it. I don&#8217;t want it to be made proprietary, for someone else&#8217;s benefit, due to some shady deal and legal technicality. Commercial yes (and encouraged), proprietary no. [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer"><img src="http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] Via Luis, here&#8217;s a good analysis of the ominous aspect of the Microsoft-Novell deal: This is not a religious argument about open source, it&#8217;s a matter of respect for a community that works together, and the wishes of creators. If I write something and put it under the GPL, then I want it under the GPL where all of us working on it can use it. I don&#8217;t want it to be made proprietary, for someone else&#8217;s benefit, due to some shady deal and legal technicality. Commercial yes (and encouraged), proprietary no. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-4006</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 11:06:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-4006</guid>
		<description>Lloyd: I meant their patent pledge, not their indemnification (which doesn&#039;t affect most of us, as we&#039;re not customers, just developers.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lloyd: I meant their patent pledge, not their indemnification (which doesn&#8217;t affect most of us, as we&#8217;re not customers, just developers.)</p>
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		<title>By: LLoyd</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3997</link>
		<dc:creator>LLoyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Nov 2006 05:30:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3997</guid>
		<description>Red Hat still has to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS2989643188.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;put their words into writing&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;it does not, however, currently cover indemnification against intellectual property infringement claims.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Red Hat still has to <a href="http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS2989643188.html" rel="nofollow">put their words into writing</a>: &#8220;it does not, however, currently cover indemnification against intellectual property infringement claims.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3818</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3818</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Luis, do you think enough people understand what the OIN is/does?&lt;/i&gt;
Mike: not at all. OIN is practically anonymous, and if they want to be effective, they shouldn&#039;t be. They&#039;re in a hard place, though- the MAD discussion is not a great one to be having publicly.

Anonymous Monkey: I&#039;m not sure you did, except perhaps in PR. If as PZB notes in another post, Novell still honestly believes in OIN and MAD, Novell could have coupled this with donations of more patents and money to OIN. They could have attempted to spin this as crying uncle to a patent blackmailer or a monopolist. It still isn&#039;t too late for them to do either of those, really, and it would probably (in my mind) get rid of most of the damage. But yeah, letting Microsoft spin this as &#039;normalizing&#039; their relationship with Linux smells like co-option bought with hush money, and not understandable capitulation to a patent-wielding monopolist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Luis, do you think enough people understand what the OIN is/does?</i><br />
Mike: not at all. OIN is practically anonymous, and if they want to be effective, they shouldn&#8217;t be. They&#8217;re in a hard place, though- the MAD discussion is not a great one to be having publicly.</p>
<p>Anonymous Monkey: I&#8217;m not sure you did, except perhaps in PR. If as PZB notes in another post, Novell still honestly believes in OIN and MAD, Novell could have coupled this with donations of more patents and money to OIN. They could have attempted to spin this as crying uncle to a patent blackmailer or a monopolist. It still isn&#8217;t too late for them to do either of those, really, and it would probably (in my mind) get rid of most of the damage. But yeah, letting Microsoft spin this as &#8216;normalizing&#8217; their relationship with Linux smells like co-option bought with hush money, and not understandable capitulation to a patent-wielding monopolist.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous Monkey</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3810</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous Monkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 19:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3810</guid>
		<description>Boy, did we scre the pooch!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boy, did we scre the pooch!</p>
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		<title>By: Luis Villa&#8217;s Blog &#187; Novell playing the patent game and shifting the burden of proof</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3804</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis Villa&#8217;s Blog &#187; Novell playing the patent game and shifting the burden of proof</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3804</guid>
		<description>[...] Dan Winship (who needs to blog more often ;) asked in a comment on my last post: [W]hy is the implying-that-Linux-infringes-patents thing even controversial? I thought everyone agreed that because of the way the USPTO hands out software patents like candy, that basically every program larger than “Hello World” infringes more patents than there are atoms in the observable universe. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dan Winship (who needs to blog more often ;) asked in a comment on my last post: [W]hy is the implying-that-Linux-infringes-patents thing even controversial? I thought everyone agreed that because of the way the USPTO hands out software patents like candy, that basically every program larger than “Hello World” infringes more patents than there are atoms in the observable universe. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Dolan</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3802</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Dolan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 17:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3802</guid>
		<description>Luis, do you think enough people understand what the OIN is/does? It doesn&#039;t seem to come up much and in the flurry of Novell-MSFT posts, I think you&#039;re the first person to mention it. The reality is what user would even need Microsoft&#039;s covenant not to sue? The OIN promises mutually assured destruction if that ever did happen.

Further, I don&#039;t see many people approaching this realistically. Microsoft has been given undue ability to shift the focus of patents and open source to &#039;users that may get sued&#039; - sure SCO did it, and we know who was funding that now.

Think of this. You go to a Ford dealership and buy a Taurus. Now that car is popular in the States - millions sold probably. That car probably has 2,000+ parts all of which are likely covered by one or multiple patents.

Let&#039;s say MSFT owns a patent on software that affects the Anti-Lock Breaking System (ABS). Would MSFT sue the car buyers? Would car buyers be expected to check every part and patents that may be covering them? That&#039;s insane?

So why do we let the FUD/thought of being sued by MSFT apply to Linux USERS? If Microsoft has a problem with SUSE or RHEL, Microsoft will sue Red Hat or Novell - not the users. And they left that option open in this agreement.

So why again does this help or change anything?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luis, do you think enough people understand what the OIN is/does? It doesn&#8217;t seem to come up much and in the flurry of Novell-MSFT posts, I think you&#8217;re the first person to mention it. The reality is what user would even need Microsoft&#8217;s covenant not to sue? The OIN promises mutually assured destruction if that ever did happen.</p>
<p>Further, I don&#8217;t see many people approaching this realistically. Microsoft has been given undue ability to shift the focus of patents and open source to &#8216;users that may get sued&#8217; &#8211; sure SCO did it, and we know who was funding that now.</p>
<p>Think of this. You go to a Ford dealership and buy a Taurus. Now that car is popular in the States &#8211; millions sold probably. That car probably has 2,000+ parts all of which are likely covered by one or multiple patents.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s say MSFT owns a patent on software that affects the Anti-Lock Breaking System (ABS). Would MSFT sue the car buyers? Would car buyers be expected to check every part and patents that may be covering them? That&#8217;s insane?</p>
<p>So why do we let the FUD/thought of being sued by MSFT apply to Linux USERS? If Microsoft has a problem with SUSE or RHEL, Microsoft will sue Red Hat or Novell &#8211; not the users. And they left that option open in this agreement.</p>
<p>So why again does this help or change anything?</p>
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		<title>By: Crosbie Fitch</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3801</link>
		<dc:creator>Crosbie Fitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 14:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3801</guid>
		<description>Luis: My prognosis is that all distros rush to find godfathers who say &quot;Don&#039;t worry lad, as long as you do what I say, I&#039;ll promise your maintained customers I won&#039;t sue them for patent violation, and that if anyone else sues them I&#039;ll sue the other guy&#039;s customers&quot;. This is making GPL s/w companies proprietary by the back door. Every customer of any size has to pay their dues to the respective godfather.

Tons of money will change hands and patents will be lauded as economic miracles.

And this relies upon everyone pretending that no patents are actually being violated.

So, what would happen if someone created a combination between Google Maps and Google Code Search, that enabled the public to collaboratively itemise each and every single instance of a patent violation within all published source code?

All the godfathers would say they were tacitly licensed uses, and only proto-violations.

Everyone outside the protection of a godfather would enjoy a sword of Damocles (unless they paid for some &#039;insurance&#039;).

If that situation persisted for very long you&#039;d polarise developers and users into &#039;unprotected&#039; nebulous/anonymous entities on one hand, and &#039;protected&#039; discrete/concrete entities on the other. And proprietary corporations thus reclaim their cash cows.

Alternatively, a lot of companies migrate to the UK - until it adopts software patents...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Luis: My prognosis is that all distros rush to find godfathers who say &#8220;Don&#8217;t worry lad, as long as you do what I say, I&#8217;ll promise your maintained customers I won&#8217;t sue them for patent violation, and that if anyone else sues them I&#8217;ll sue the other guy&#8217;s customers&#8221;. This is making GPL s/w companies proprietary by the back door. Every customer of any size has to pay their dues to the respective godfather.</p>
<p>Tons of money will change hands and patents will be lauded as economic miracles.</p>
<p>And this relies upon everyone pretending that no patents are actually being violated.</p>
<p>So, what would happen if someone created a combination between Google Maps and Google Code Search, that enabled the public to collaboratively itemise each and every single instance of a patent violation within all published source code?</p>
<p>All the godfathers would say they were tacitly licensed uses, and only proto-violations.</p>
<p>Everyone outside the protection of a godfather would enjoy a sword of Damocles (unless they paid for some &#8216;insurance&#8217;).</p>
<p>If that situation persisted for very long you&#8217;d polarise developers and users into &#8216;unprotected&#8217; nebulous/anonymous entities on one hand, and &#8216;protected&#8217; discrete/concrete entities on the other. And proprietary corporations thus reclaim their cash cows.</p>
<p>Alternatively, a lot of companies migrate to the UK &#8211; until it adopts software patents&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Luis</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3800</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Nov 2006 12:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3800</guid>
		<description>Crosbie: in a nutshell, I think that approach is madness; I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t have much time to explain why.

Dan: The answer to that is probably another long post; one I was trying to incorporate into this post (whose original title was &#039;defection&#039;) but had to nuke for lack of time. I&#039;ll try to answer tomorrow morning, I promise.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crosbie: in a nutshell, I think that approach is madness; I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t have much time to explain why.</p>
<p>Dan: The answer to that is probably another long post; one I was trying to incorporate into this post (whose original title was &#8216;defection&#8217;) but had to nuke for lack of time. I&#8217;ll try to answer tomorrow morning, I promise.</p>
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		<title>By: Crosbie Fitch</title>
		<link>http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/comment-page-1/#comment-3776</link>
		<dc:creator>Crosbie Fitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Nov 2006 23:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/11/08/more-thoughts-on-ms-and-novell-with-a-dash-of-oracle-sun-and-ubuntu/#comment-3776</guid>
		<description>danw, the legislature and judiciary are blind, and the senate is in the hands of the lobbyists representing clients with vast patent portfolios - who remember, like patents, because they keep pesky entrepreneurs at bay.

Only software engineers and those in this industry know the great farce that is software patenting, and that obviously includes MS and its ilk and all in bed with GNU/Linux - and all the businesses that are their customers.

If you can&#039;t choose between Suse and RH, but MS has offered an implicit amnesty to Suse, then the cloud of doom, the implicit threat that existed to all has now cleared to blue sky above Suse. It might make it seem like RH has suddenly got darker...

Of course, what has actually happened is simply that MS has realised that GPLv3 is approaching and it has to move fast to capture at least one GPLv2-only distro before it&#039;s too late. I suspect it realises that this will immediately put the pressure on for Linux and distros to quickly migrate to GPLv3 (ditching any Novell code of course).

GPLv3 migration isn&#039;t much of a defense after the horse has bolted though.

The only remaining strategy is to call the bluff. Declare every possible patent that every piece of source code violates. Either patents are upheld and the entire Internet infrastructure is switched off or patents are abolished.

I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It&#039;s the only way to be sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>danw, the legislature and judiciary are blind, and the senate is in the hands of the lobbyists representing clients with vast patent portfolios &#8211; who remember, like patents, because they keep pesky entrepreneurs at bay.</p>
<p>Only software engineers and those in this industry know the great farce that is software patenting, and that obviously includes MS and its ilk and all in bed with GNU/Linux &#8211; and all the businesses that are their customers.</p>
<p>If you can&#8217;t choose between Suse and RH, but MS has offered an implicit amnesty to Suse, then the cloud of doom, the implicit threat that existed to all has now cleared to blue sky above Suse. It might make it seem like RH has suddenly got darker&#8230;</p>
<p>Of course, what has actually happened is simply that MS has realised that GPLv3 is approaching and it has to move fast to capture at least one GPLv2-only distro before it&#8217;s too late. I suspect it realises that this will immediately put the pressure on for Linux and distros to quickly migrate to GPLv3 (ditching any Novell code of course).</p>
<p>GPLv3 migration isn&#8217;t much of a defense after the horse has bolted though.</p>
<p>The only remaining strategy is to call the bluff. Declare every possible patent that every piece of source code violates. Either patents are upheld and the entire Internet infrastructure is switched off or patents are abolished.</p>
<p>I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It&#8217;s the only way to be sure.</p>
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