Comments on: On Killing Spammers, and Other Methods of Setting Legal and Moral Precedent http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/ Ramblings on software, law, and the spaces in between. Wed, 23 May 2012 07:48:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Pete http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-4796 Pete Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:28:58 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-4796 It's certainly over-reacting to kill a spammer on the basis of the annoyance done to one individual. While ten million paper cuts to one person may kill them, a cut to each of ten million people does little harm. So a single person has little justification to claim serious harm, but isn't society justified in considering ten million cuts to its citizens equivalent to murder? It’s certainly over-reacting to kill a spammer on the basis of the annoyance done to one individual. While ten million paper cuts to one person may kill them, a cut to each of ten million people does little harm.

So a single person has little justification to claim serious harm, but isn’t society justified in considering ten million cuts to its citizens equivalent to murder?

]]> By: Sergey Kirienko http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2749 Sergey Kirienko Mon, 25 Sep 2006 07:33:54 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2749 Here (in Soviet Russia) we already got one #1 spammer killed. Although it was doubtely done for spam, but it becames a top of local internet news. And no one regrets. You could read about it here: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/macuser/news/75585/russian-spam-kind-bludgeoned-to-death.html, or just search [Russian spammer killed] in Google News Archive. Here (in Soviet Russia) we already got one #1 spammer killed. Although it was doubtely done for spam, but it becames a top of local internet news. And no one regrets.

You could read about it here: http://www.pcpro.co.uk/macuser/news/75585/russian-spam-kind-bludgeoned-to-death.html, or just search [Russian spammer killed] in Google News Archive.

]]> By: Martin Sevior http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2743 Martin Sevior Mon, 25 Sep 2006 00:59:45 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2743 Hi Luis, Apart the moral obsenity that is Capital Punishment, it would not work. No criminal ever thinks they'll get caught. The US is the only Western country with Capital Punishment and it has pretty close to the highest murder rate. Another example is closer to my home. Inodnesia and Singapore both have EXTREMELY well publisized policies of mandatory Capital Punishment for drug smuggling. But still extremely stupid Australains have been caught smuggling drugs into Indonesia recently. They're all facing the death penalty. Another Australian was hanged in Singapore a few months ago for drug trafficing. I guess you were really asking about realistic penalties for spammers. Maybe seizing 100% of all assets? That probabally wouldn't work because of off-shore havens and frankly just burying cash somewhere. I like the idea of Dailbor of employing convicted ex-spammers to bring down unconvicted spammers. I think it would nicely use the sociopathic in our society against each other rather than against society. Hi Luis,
Apart the moral obsenity that is Capital Punishment, it would not work. No criminal ever thinks they’ll get caught. The US is the only Western country with Capital Punishment and it has pretty close to the highest murder rate.

Another example is closer to my home. Inodnesia and Singapore both have EXTREMELY well publisized policies of mandatory Capital Punishment for drug smuggling. But still extremely stupid Australains have been caught smuggling drugs into Indonesia recently. They’re all facing the death penalty. Another Australian was hanged in Singapore a few months ago for drug trafficing.

I guess you were really asking about realistic penalties for spammers. Maybe seizing 100% of all assets? That probabally wouldn’t work because of off-shore havens and frankly just burying cash somewhere.

I like the idea of Dailbor of employing convicted ex-spammers to bring down unconvicted spammers. I think it would nicely use the sociopathic in our society against each other rather than against society.

]]> By: Reinout van Schouwen http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2739 Reinout van Schouwen Sun, 24 Sep 2006 22:45:45 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2739 AdamW: second that. AdamW: second that.

]]> By: AdamW http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2735 AdamW Sun, 24 Sep 2006 18:47:49 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2735 I find your extremely casual approach to human life disturbing. I'd say spamming would have to be at least, oh, fifty thousand times more annoying that it actually before I could even _understand_ someone having the impulse to actually kill someone else over it, let alone CONDONE it. I find your extremely casual approach to human life disturbing. I’d say spamming would have to be at least, oh, fifty thousand times more annoying that it actually before I could even _understand_ someone having the impulse to actually kill someone else over it, let alone CONDONE it.

]]> By: Dalibor Topic http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2732 Dalibor Topic Sun, 24 Sep 2006 15:17:50 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2732 The IRS case was the first Bell trial. When he got out of jail, he had a fixed idea or two about taking revenge on IRS agents, and ended up being sentenced to 10 years in 2001 on charges of interstate stalking. His essay played some role in reinforcing the argumentation that he's out to harass the people he stalked in no harmless fashion, but there was a lot of other circumstancial indicators (see the google groups posting history). As you say, icing on the cake. Not a very tasty one, though. Theorethical fascination with socially-endorsed/sanctioned murder aside (look where it got Jim Bell ...), I think bribe is a much more efficient way to align expected with actual behaviour of leaders of regimes. In the spammer case, using the funds from the escrow account in exchange for his cooperation in the prosecution of other spammers, for example, would seem to be more promising than committing illegal acts. That's why I used the word 'creative' up there. ;) The IRS case was the first Bell trial. When he got out of jail, he had a fixed idea or two about taking revenge on IRS agents, and ended up being sentenced to 10 years in 2001 on charges of interstate stalking. His essay played some role in reinforcing the argumentation that he’s out to harass the people he stalked in no harmless fashion, but there was a lot of other circumstancial indicators (see the google groups posting history). As you say, icing on the cake. Not a very tasty one, though.

Theorethical fascination with socially-endorsed/sanctioned murder aside (look where it got Jim Bell …), I think bribe is a much more efficient way to align expected with actual behaviour of leaders of regimes. In the spammer case, using the funds from the escrow account in exchange for his cooperation in the prosecution of other spammers, for example, would seem to be more promising than committing illegal acts. That’s why I used the word ‘creative’ up there. ;)

]]> By: Luis http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2725 Luis Sun, 24 Sep 2006 12:10:19 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2725 Oh, don't get me started on actual assassination. Killing leaders of non-democratic states is soooooo much more just (and I would believe more effective) than waging war on their populace it isn't even funny. (NB: only holds true for non-democratic states; if you kill the leadership of a democratic state, they'll just elect someone of similar belief again and you'll have accomplished nothing.) <em>[Edit later: having now actually skimmed the Jim Bell piece... while interesting theoretically as a check on government, it presumes non-democracy. Would be really interesting in communist China or in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleptocracy">kleptocratic</a> Russia; it is less interesting (and completely unjustifiable from a philosophical and moral standpoint) in a democracy, even one as deeply flawed as ours. And it is clear from reading the indictment of Bell that he wouldn't be in jail if he'd just written the essay; instead, it was doing other things (like lying to the IRS) that got him in trouble, with the essay as icing on the cake.]</em> Oh, don’t get me started on actual assassination. Killing leaders of non-democratic states is soooooo much more just (and I would believe more effective) than waging war on their populace it isn’t even funny. (NB: only holds true for non-democratic states; if you kill the leadership of a democratic state, they’ll just elect someone of similar belief again and you’ll have accomplished nothing.)

[Edit later: having now actually skimmed the Jim Bell piece... while interesting theoretically as a check on government, it presumes non-democracy. Would be really interesting in communist China or in kleptocratic Russia; it is less interesting (and completely unjustifiable from a philosophical and moral standpoint) in a democracy, even one as deeply flawed as ours. And it is clear from reading the indictment of Bell that he wouldn't be in jail if he'd just written the essay; instead, it was doing other things (like lying to the IRS) that got him in trouble, with the essay as icing on the cake.]

]]> By: Dalibor Topic http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2715 Dalibor Topic Sun, 24 Sep 2006 03:34:14 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2715 Ah, right, all of that has been thought up before, by a guy named Jim Bell, and written up in a series of essays called "Assassination Politics". He seems to be still serving jail time for that idea. Ah, right, all of that has been thought up before, by a guy named Jim Bell, and written up in a series of essays called “Assassination Politics”. He seems to be still serving jail time for that idea.

]]> By: Dalibor Topic http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2713 Dalibor Topic Sun, 24 Sep 2006 02:42:13 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2713 An anonymous entity could set up anonymous escrow accounts that are tied to a spammer's activity. If a spammer's activity stops (whatever creative act that may take to be accomplished is left to the imagination of the spammer), the stopper gets the cash. Those spammed can chip in cash to up the bounty. If noone claims the money after the spam stops, give it away to charity. An anonymous entity could set up anonymous escrow accounts that are tied to a spammer’s activity. If a spammer’s activity stops (whatever creative act that may take to be accomplished is left to the imagination of the spammer), the stopper gets the cash. Those spammed can chip in cash to up the bounty. If noone claims the money after the spam stops, give it away to charity.

]]> By: jfleck at inkstain » Blog Archive » The first thing we do…. http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/comment-page-1/#comment-2711 jfleck at inkstain » Blog Archive » The first thing we do…. Sun, 24 Sep 2006 02:21:40 +0000 http://tieguy.org/blog/2006/09/23/on-killing-spammers-and-other-methods-of-setting-legal-and-moral-precedent/#comment-2711 [...] Luis suggests an approach to the spam problem: [I]t really seems like it is a shame we probably couldn’t get away with killing a few spammers- because surely you wouldn’t need to do more than 1 or 2 before the point got across very clearly. To put it another way: I don’t think all spammers should die; I just think that enough spammers should die so that the rest stop doing it. We’re clearly in a fairly interesting historical situation, where some of the things we all hate have no clear moral or legal antecedents, and the penalties we’ve set up so far are clearly not discouraging enough. [...] [...] Luis suggests an approach to the spam problem: [I]t really seems like it is a shame we probably couldn’t get away with killing a few spammers- because surely you wouldn’t need to do more than 1 or 2 before the point got across very clearly. To put it another way: I don’t think all spammers should die; I just think that enough spammers should die so that the rest stop doing it. We’re clearly in a fairly interesting historical situation, where some of the things we all hate have no clear moral or legal antecedents, and the penalties we’ve set up so far are clearly not discouraging enough. [...]

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